Scion tC 5,000w+ Daily Driver

[shizzzon]

Before you read further, there will be a video of this in action and some reactions later from it but to the bad news first-

Currently one of the amps needs to be sent in for repair currently due to unknown circumstances.

The pics below show what it actually looks like when it's completely in working order.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn147/shizzzon/100_0156.jpg

The install took about 11 days to do and am still not done yet.

That is just the bass install.

Here is what it consists of-

2 Audioque HDC312s
2 Audioque AQ2200ds 4,500w minimum.
2 200A Battery Solenoids
3 Powermaster AGM Batteries
2 Image Dynamic CX62 midbass drivers, 150wrms per
2 Image Dynamic CXS65CS Components, 100wrms per
1 Sundown 100.4 90A fused.
Alpine IVA-W205
1/0, 2/0 and 3/0 wiring.

Total weight - 430lbs installed.

Spare tire has been removed but install does NOT interfere with the back seats. Back seat retains factory position.

the enclosure is tuned to 38hz, however due to the size of the tC and how the box is installed, the acoustical length outside of the box has actually made the tuning drop to 33hz which is even better since i had no more room for port length, hehe.

This is a massive install for this car and more will come soon.

[SCIKO4U]

Looks Crazy Man!!! I like it!!!!

[Spock]

tell me you have an upgraded alternator for all that.

[shizzzon]

I will... but i dont need one right now, ironically.

Only runnin 1 amp right now until the other one comes back.

Running it at 2ohms but after rise, the amp is only drawing an average of around 55A and i've hooked the DMM to the batts and the amp in the back and i have 0.0v drop during playback so a new alt right now is not needed.

I do have a 300A alt waiting for me if i need it though, :)

[Spock]

yeah you don't have any voltage dro because you have an enormous reserve of power with all those batteries. But what is charging those batteries? You said that the one amp is only pulling 55A but what is the total system(the whole car) pulling with those 3 batteries the amp and all the other electrical stuff in the car? Those batteries are only going to stay charged for so long. you will start to see dimming and lower output once those batteries run down which will happen.

[shizzzon]

No sir, you are slightly incorrect.

If i were to have just measured voltage at the battery and left it at that, then yea, i could understand what you are saying.

However, i've been in the car audio world in and out a couple times and safety is a number 1 concern for a daily driver setup and what's even more crucial is making sure the car doesn't fail to start either.

There are 3 amps in this install.
Only 1 amp is hooked up right now.

This amp is only drawing about 55A of AVERAGE draw.

It may draw 20A sometimes or it may draw 90A but average draw is 55A from what i've sat there and watched.

Ammeter clamped onto the only amp's power cable to determine amp draw.

Yes, i sometimes check the float voltage of the battery bank but have noticed that it isn't as current happy as i was worried about with only this amp running half power.

I do not let the batt's float voltage drop below 12.8v. That's a pretty high voltage just sitting there, let alone a threshold i chose for this temporary setup before everything else is setup.

Batt's float usually around 13.1 and i try to keep it like that too.

tCs come with a 100A HIGHLY efficient alt that uses internally wound square windings on a hairpin stator. From what i've been told, you can put this alt against any other typical alt technology and nothing is as efficient as these alts.

So, to keep the batts charged, the system can't be left wide-open during the entire driving distance obviously. I usually let it charge for the entire trip to work every other day and sometimes on the way back.

The kicker here is once everything is installed and ready to go, there will not be a decent amount of non stop playback at that level, even with a 300A alt.

It's still debatable because that part of the install isn't installed yet but with over 5Kw of power, i do not think i'd want to be listening to that non stop anyway, lol.

[THansenite]

That is an amazing setup man. It is good to see someone with the knowhow of how to do a great install put in a daily driver. I would love to see this install in person someday. Can't wait to see the video. You should post up more pics as well. I'd love to see how everything fits together.

[shizzzon]

i can give u the dimensions that made it so-

I HAD to remove some things in the back to get this to work.

For instance-
Spare tire and ALL tools for it including the factory holders for all the tools as well.

Both sides of the car's carpet trim, the trim piece where the hatch latches at, the big black plastic piece right behind rear sear and the carpet piece that is attached to the back seat and black plastic piece.

All of the above had to be removed.

The box is 36.25" wide, It perfectly fits between the 2 joints in the hatch area right in front of the frame with the 3 large holes pre-drilled out.

The box is 17.75" deep and 17.75" tall.

I could not have gone any taller that far back or else i would have hit the hatch door when trying to close it.

The amps had to be stacked on top of each other because the way how the hatch contours the farther back it goes, it made it impossible to have both amps lay on the box separately.

Having the box at it's current width gave me JUST ENOUGH room to mount an amp on the left hand side and run wire and on the other side mount dual 200A battery solenoids and for the port to fire through as well.

My meter showed that i had 2 of 24 possible box designs that was gonna be loudest to the EAR, not for competition.

The meter was placed at driver's head rest.
The 2 loudest setups are-
sub up port back
sub forward port to passenger side.

After deciding, i figured i would have more room for equipment if i went sub forward port passenger side so that's what i did.

IT is indeed loud but i can't wait til it's done to see how loud it is then.

[BoiseAuctioneer]

Wow waiting for the video!!!

[PhattC]

I have a Question for you what do you spl at..& are you caps or just battery cells....:icon_djsmiley:

[shizzzon]

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

[aalbertson3]

That is crazy.......

[Spock]

No sir, you are slightly incorrect.

If i were to have just measured voltage at the battery and left it at that, then yea, i could understand what you are saying.

However, i've been in the car audio world in and out a couple times and safety is a number 1 concern for a daily driver setup and what's even more crucial is making sure the car doesn't fail to start either.

There are 3 amps in this install.
Only 1 amp is hooked up right now.

This amp is only drawing about 55A of AVERAGE draw.

It may draw 20A sometimes or it may draw 90A but average draw is 55A from what i've sat there and watched.

Ammeter clamped onto the only amp's power cable to determine amp draw.

Yes, i sometimes check the float voltage of the battery bank but have noticed that it isn't as current happy as i was worried about with only this amp running half power.

I do not let the batt's float voltage drop below 12.8v. That's a pretty high voltage just sitting there, let alone a threshold i chose for this temporary setup before everything else is setup.

Batt's float usually around 13.1 and i try to keep it like that too.

tCs come with a 100A HIGHLY efficient alt that uses internally wound square windings on a hairpin stator. From what i've been told, you can put this alt against any other typical alt technology and nothing is as efficient as these alts.

So, to keep the batts charged, the system can't be left wide-open during the entire driving distance obviously. I usually let it charge for the entire trip to work every other day and sometimes on the way back.

The kicker here is once everything is installed and ready to go, there will not be a decent amount of non stop playback at that level, even with a 300A alt.

It's still debatable because that part of the install isn't installed yet but with over 5Kw of power, i do not think i'd want to be listening to that non stop anyway, lol.

I am currently in the car audio world and have been installing for over 5 years. Adding 55A of draw to the system of the tC is signifigant. The alternator in a car is designed to run the existing electronics in the are all at the same time. So adding 55A is a signifigant load especially when you add the 3 batteries into the equation which makes the load signifigantly above the 55A that the amp is pulling. Now when you put that new alt in there you shouldn't have a problem.

[trebor]

Nice work Shizzon, I'm more of an SQ guy myself but that's neither here nor there, that's a cool setup. Good to see someone who knows how stuff works.

With this setup and only a 55amp average draw, since it's a daily driver I'd think you could lose a couple batteries and free up some current reserve for your amps....what do you think(disregard this if you compete any, you'll need those batts lol)? Of course when you get the other amp up and running your looking at a little over 99amps average current draw, your other altenator will surely be helpful then! Haha.

Are you coming to Asylum? I'd love to see this in person. :kid:

[shizzzon]

actually, when i ship out then receive the other amp back, and hook up the 3rd one, there will be a potential of 480A worth of draw.

Now, for reality sake, that won't happen.

That's how all the fuses are though.

Each bass amp is fused at 200A and the 4 channel is fused at 80A.

For music, average draw is half that so i'm lookin at around 200-250A worth of constant draw during music playback once everything is ready.

about the alt again, hehe.

As long as an alt can disperse 1A to charge, that's something. Although there is more than 1A worth of charge in the alt to disperse.

Typically, i'm sure the current is coming directly out of the batts but once it's turned down to a low level, the alt takes responsibility in ensuring the batts are charging.

I just checked the float voltage today as a matter of fact. 13.2v

That's pretty high with the car off but that's what it's registering. So i'm still in the green zone.

It's weird though.
It seems the more i jam on it, the higher the voltage is when i check it...

I showed my friend that the other day, must have something to do with the way the computer controls the alt i guess...

Reason i say that is because the other day i didn't jam on it as much and i got home and checked it and said it was 12.7v...
I'll be gettin me a remote volt meter soon but i really don't need it just yet.


I do have a 12.5v shut off switch in the back.
It controls the front stage of the car but the switch monitors the master power line.

So, if voltage drops below 12.5v, it will shut off the front stage letting me know to immediately turn it down if something severe was about to happen to the electrical system.

[trebor]

actually, when i ship out then receive the other amp back, and hook up the 3rd one, there will be a potential of 480A worth of draw.

Now, for reality sake, that won't happen.

That's how all the fuses are though.

Each bass amp is fused at 200A and the 4 channel is fused at 80A.

For music, average draw is half that so i'm lookin at around 200-250A worth of constant draw during music playback once everything is ready.

For discussion only cause I really do think your setup is :coolp:.

On music, amps only put out 10% power using a 1:1 ratio...a 1:3 ratio is considered the optimum gain setting for the best balance of distortion and power, this is what it sounds like you have yours set at....so your 55A average draw is right on for the 2500watts your running. 10% of 2500W is 250W, x 3 = 750W average music power.

We can check this using:
Voltage x Current = Watts
13.6V x 55A = 748W average music power

And when you add the other 2000w amp....

10% of 4500W is 450W, x 3 = 1350w average music power
13.6V x 99.26A = 1350W

That's where I came up with the 99A figure earlier. :wman:

EDIT: Just realized your adding A THIRD 2000w amp...good lord!
So....
10% of 6500W is 650W, x 3 = 1950W average music power
13.6V x 143.38A = 1950W

So 143A average draw on music, when you add that last amp.....thats insane man!

[shizzzon]

whoa whoa whoa, hehe, you misunderstood what i said or implied.

I have 2 2200w amps and 1 4 channel amp.

At this current time, only the 1 2200w amp is connected.

And to top that off, it is wired @2ohms which is only rated for 1,300w, not the full 2200w.

So, 1300w rated, i've measured 408w of output @34hz @5.39ohms before.
IF outputted 1,300w of power, draw would be a little over 100A so 55A average is right on for 50%.

I've always understood to take half the fuse rating and expect that as your average draw on music and for every install i've done, that rule of thumb is right on.

I just got the amp packaged up that's damaged, i actually think i might know what caused it to go up in smoke.

This is speculation but if anything other than defect, the ground connection that was used for this amp may be "iffy" for high current demands. Funny thing is that the amp never seen high current demands, only very low demands before it went up so that's why it's speculation.

They are gonna tell me for sure what happened so we both know.

Regardless of cause, i'm changing the ground anyway.


And to someone up a few posts, i have metered it but i use a meter more strict than the Tlab mic. I could post numbers and while many think it may not be that high, i do not know how high it is on a tlab mic. So it would be like comparing apples to oranges.

The only thing i know is the louder you get, the mroe the Tlab mic trails off when being compared to this sensor.

An explanation the manufacturer gave me is at one test, when the Tlab measured just over 179Db, my sensor just surpassed 170 Db. While that's a big ass difference there, the difference is less than that at lower spl levels, just don't know how much and don't wanna guess either.

I'm in Louisville, Ky and the only person who owns a Tlab mic is almost an hour away from what i've heard. It'd be nice to compare readings if i could ever get in touch with Team Daily...

[trebor]

So, 1300w rated, i've measured 408w of output @34hz @5.39ohms before.
IF outputted 1,300w of power, draw would be a little over 100A so 55A average is right on for 50%.

I can see where your figuring 50% from now, surely you don't drive around listening to only 34Hz though. Would you use 34Hz as your gauge for 50% power instead of average power from the musics full spectrum......understand? Even so with a 1:3 ratio, 130W x 3 = 390w(you measured 408w, I'm in the same ballpark) so were sorta but not really ending up with similar numbers. It's all good, if the way you've learned how to do this works for you then so be it......as long as your having fun is what it's all about, right!?! :up:

keep us informed about that broken amp, ya know sometimes electronics just go bad! :dontknow:

I've got an xb2 ordered, my first gen was totaled recently, so do you think it'll have that same alternator as your tC's? I hope so, more current is always welcome. Hehe!

[shizzzon]

i'm not sayin this like it's fact but i wouldnt see why not?

It may not be the same Ampere rating but the same technology is ...possible.

It's still iffy to say because the tC and the xD seems to be the hardest vehicles in the Scion line that is hard to find alts for.

I thought i posted this in this thread but i didnt figure average draw from 34hz. I've seen it fluctuate from 20 to around 90A but just from watching the meter over various songs, 55A seems to be it's hot spot average.

Oh, and i only listen to 34hz when i'm driving, haha.

That's funny.

[Spock]

On music, amps only put out 10% power using a 1:1 ratio...a 1:3 ratio is considered the optimum gain setting for the best balance of distortion and power


Where did you come up with that? That is not correct at all.

The gain setting is dependent on one thing and that is the RCA level output. Source units have different output voltages so there is no general gain setting. A source with a 2V output will have a gain setting much higher then a 4V output. The best way to set the gain on an amp is with an oscilloscope but most of us don't have one.

[trebor]

Oh, and i only listen to 34hz when i'm driving, haha.

That's funny.

:Coucou11: Nah, nah....we're good. I'm really interested about the alternator stuff you posted earlier though, being so efficient and all.....never heard that before so I'm thinking the new xB will have it since it has the same motor as your tC. I bought a couple Alpine PDX amps and never got to use them in my old b, but it had a really low amperage alt so they should be happy with this 100A alternator.

[trebor]

Where did you come up with that? That is not correct at all.

The gain setting is dependent on one thing and that is the RCA level output. Source units have different output voltages so there is no general gain setting. A source with a 2V output will have a gain setting much higher then a 4V output. The best way to set the gain on an amp is with an oscilloscope but most of us don't have one.

Thats related but totally misleading. You match the output voltage, whatever it may be, to the input of your amplifier. Where you set the gain ratio is totally up to you, it requires a signal generator of some sort and an oscope or small amplified speaker. Example, for a 1:3 ratio.....for simplicity lets say the decks output voltage is 3V, then we would set the amplifier so that it clips with only one volt of input. When you figure the crest factor of most music, peak distortion occurs for less 3% of the programs duration and is rarely audible......this last bit I copied right out of my amplifier level setting disc's instructions, lol.

[shizzzon]

if u want the actual facts about the alt technology and to see if it's used on your new ride, contact www.mechman.com by phone or get ahold of Ohio Generator.

Mechman actually makes the alts for all the vehicles as far as i'm aware of.
Ohio Generator as of right now doesn't make alts for the tCs so their info may be limited compared to Mechmans.

[Spock]

Thats totally false and misleading. You match the output voltage, whatever it may be, to the input of your amplifier. Where you set the gain ratio is totally up to you, it requires a signal generator of some sort and an oscope or small amplified speaker.

Thats what I said you match the output to the input, except you don't know that the input is the gain setting.

This is what I do at my job I know what I am talking about.

[shizzzon]

i must have missed that entire discussion but yep, that's what you do.

I do own an o-scope too. As soon as my other amp comes back, i'm finally gonna be able to tune these amps with it.

That's what takes forever...but ever since i've owned one, it's saved me money replacing equipment from excessive clipping.

[trebor]

Thats what I said you match the output to the input, except you don't know that the input is the gain setting.

This is what I do at my job I know what I am talking about.

The MOL is always the same for a given deck, the amps input is fixed but needs to be matched, whether you set any gain overlap or not is totally up to you.

Just because I drive a truck at my job doesn't mean you couldn't do the same better. I've been doing car audio for over twenty years now, I know a thing or two myself.

[trebor]

if u want the actual facts about the alt technology and to see if it's used on your new ride, contact www.mechman.com (http://www.mechman.com) by phone or get ahold of Ohio Generator.

Mechman actually makes the alts for all the vehicles as far as i'm aware of.
Ohio Generator as of right now doesn't make alts for the tCs so their info may be limited compared to Mechmans.

Cool thanks! I'll check it out!

[Harleyguy]

nice gear and all, but I hope to God you are gonna make panels to cover all that up? If so, it should look great....

[shizzzon]

well, they have repaired the amp now. It should be in sometime near the end of next week.

I'm about to replace the front stage with Image Dynamics amped off of a sundown 100.4 so when the amp gets here, everything should be ready.

I gotta do some other small adjustments in the back but nothing major.

[ShadowBox]

nice gear and all, but I hope to God you are gonna make panels to cover all that up? If so, it should look great....
x2.

I bet its retardedly loud too.

[triniosito]

Looks Crazy Man!!! I like it!!!!
+ 1

[_Federal_]

Looks very good.

[shizzzon]

i didnt want to leave this post stranded like this so i wanted to let you all know that they are still having some problems with my amps.

They got all the amps now so they are going to diagnose and troubleshoot what exactly is goin on and strap them together at the shop to ensure that when it leaves this time, it leaves in working order the EXACT way i'll be using them.

I won't be gettin the amps back for about another 2 weeks so i'll post an update after that time has elapsed.

I will say this-

At only 1,300w of rated amp power i had it on for the time being, when the windows were rolled down and the sunroof open in the tC, the entire inside ceiling area that houses the visors, dome light, etc... from left to right, the entire thing was violently shaking like crazy.

It's because there is not much support for that part of the frame i guess.

I won't forget this post... I still have some brackets\bracing and cosmetics to do after the amps come back... and work, hehe.