Dunno What To Do

[tommymcc]

i'm an spl freak, but i also love really good sq

so i'm torn between porting or sealing my w7 when i get it, most ppl say w7 is a pure spl sub, but its truely opposite, the designers at JL build there product for the SQ person, the w7 just happens to be really freaken loud while maintaining high sq, but they do sound really good and loud ported, i just don't like the freq. droppoff you get when you port a sub

but if i choose to go pure SQ then why not use a couple of w6's, they're made for SQ and sound like ass if you port them, if i choose to go SPL then why not buy a pure SPL woofer like a RE or a solo x or something similar

right now my setup is for SQ and i just happened to pull off some big numbers in dbdrag, i guess my box and positioning are just right to get the max out of my setup

SQ means a pretty fiberglass enclosure, SPL normally means a large box with a large port for good spl, so i don't plan on winning any car shows with an spl system simply because they look for the "pretty" installs

here are my ideas right for a SQ system

1. W7 centermounted in fiberglass with an amp on either side (possibly floating) with some components for when the hatch is open

2. two w6's in the corners angled (possibly inverted) with the amprack floating in the middle with the components somewhere in the mix

i don't plan on painting the fiberglass, i'd rather vinyl, just my prefference i guess, i may possibly incorporate my airtank into the setup somehow, currently you can't see my tank or compressor, compressor will most likely be mounted outside the car this time under the frame somewhere, i'm tired of hearing it kick on

any inputs?

[trebor]

Dont ask me, my install looks like ass! :pilot: I've never cared much for ported boxes in my cars.

[tommymcc]

made a decision, right now i'm gonna run a single 10w6 off my current amp, when money permits i'm gonna add another w6 and an undecided amp to the mix, it'll be sealed

reason for choosing sq is because i'd like to build a dedicated SPL vehicle, i'm gonna look for a mid 90's model hatchback and load it down with stuff

[um_lunchbox]

Funny thing, while you have a good sub .. sq is about so much more than a sub. So while you have subs that hit like mack trucks, the rest of your money will be spent on good mid's and hi's, equalization and crossovers. GL to ya ...

[tommymcc]

guess you haven't seen the rest of my setup then

i started my fight for sq with the high/mid, amps for them, and HU with great x-over eq, i'm just now finishing it up

reason i'm using just one sub is because all of my money did goto the rest, the components and their amp cost about $1200 total, hu was about $600, sound deadning and fabrication has been a black hole too, fiberglass and layer upon layer of deadning will rip you a new one if your not carefull

here is a link to my cardomain, the site is down for maintence right now tho

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2283783/1

[trebor]

We need to get together, I still wanna hear your system. :kid:

[tommymcc]

the box will be over at audio midwest in midwest city all day today, i may not be there, but it will

gimme a little time to get the EQ setup when i get the sub in and i'll try to arrange something

[tommymcc]

k, i got the sub in and most of the hatch done, i have the air tank and compressor hidden, the sub box is fiberglassed and mounted, only thing that is missing right now is the vinyl since we didn't have any that matched, and the amp rack since i'm not gonna mount an audison amp next to a crossfire amp, when i get the new sub amp we'll do the amp rack

also notice the large amount of cargo room i managed to gain

and yes, this sub actually pounds, i really wasn't expecting it to be as loud as it is, so i'm just gonna run a single 10, the SQ is superb and really complements the high/mids

[tommymcc]

also, it may currently look like it sticks out like a sore thumb, but the amp rac will go with the flow of the enclosure and it'll look cleaner, its just a matter of getting money for the amp and time for the fabrication

ps. this was done in 8 hours

[trebor]

Cool, I woulda come by if I had known earlier. I was in Tulsa. :(

Since your doing SQ, does your front stage get very loud? Mine doesn't and I don't really want to sacrifice distortion for volume so I'm tryin' to figure a way to get more out of it. :kid:

[tommymcc]

my front stage gets much louder with the kickpanels than it did with the midrange in the door and the tweeter in the dash, i really don't know why, but it does, as for overall how loud they get, they can at times drown out the sub without distorting

[trebor]

How much power do you have going to each side and how much gain overlap are you using?

[tommymcc]

i have about 85w rms(bench test says 130w) going to each side, 0 overlap and the eq is flat, and i'm using the passive crossover network

i used to have to modify the gains and eq, then when i put them in the kick panels the imaging was perfect

[trebor]

I really need to hear yours. I must have something wrong. Mines got 240w to each side and 5dB of gain overlap, still doesnt get loud. Sounds good,images good.....not perfect though! Lots of cuts in the eq, so that's prolly where I'm losing all my sound. Think I'm gonna try some 10inch midbasses in the back.

[tommymcc]

what do you mean by gain overlap? only thing i can think of are the switches i've seen in some passive crossovers

it also may just be what kind of components your running, i noticed significant gains in overall loudness by switching from rockford to boston to focal, bostons were louder than focal, but not as clear, and i really like the soft dome tweeter, i never heard a soft tweeter in a car before but i really like it, it sounds great for jazz and stuff like that

as for when you can hear it, i should be back up at audiomidwest to get the box vinyl'd and the new sub amp intalled next weekend, and i'll be going home to mississippi for labor day weekend

[trebor]

I'll try an remember, try to make it out there next Sat. :kid:

Gain overlap is how much you turn up the gain of your amplifier beyond its level matched setting to increase loudness. Generally a 10dB gain overlap is considered optimum, you can go further but distortion becomes noticeable.

[tommymcc]

ohhhh, well then, both of my gains are turned all the way down right now, they're being fed a good clean signal on the highs, and the sub is turned down since the amp does 750w rms at 2 ohms and the sub rms' at 400w and its a duel 4 ohm

[tommymcc]

btw, what kind of front stage do you have? don't really care about brand, but what are they made of? hard/soft tweeter, metal/impp/kevlar woofer?

and how do you have them staged? factory locations or kicks?

[trebor]

btw, what kind of front stage do you have? don't really care about brand, but what are they made of? hard/soft tweeter, metal/impp/kevlar woofer?

and how do you have them staged? factory locations or kicks?

They are piezo drivers, similiar to compression drivers(which I will switch to eventually, but dunno if they can take the power), coupled to waveguide horns under the dash(mounted to the bottom of the dash), they play from 750Hz on up. 6.5" midbasses in the factory door locations from 750Hz on down, I believe its just a coated paper cone. The horns are USD and the 6.5" are Digital Designs, I'm using USD passive crossovers for these components.

[tommymcc]

i would suggest using a midrange for 750hz down to like 200hz, the using the midbass just for 200hz down, you have it pulling doulbe duty by running midrange and midbass, i assume using a 4inch in the dash for this would be fine, but you may get some wierd sound reflection from the window, i noticed some freq. just sounded wierd when my tweeters were up there

[trebor]

Well, A good driver won't really have any problems playing 80-750. Depends how you eq for midbass I guess. If you like alot of midbass then you may have probs. My DD drivers are alittle too heavy duty to play that high very well. They are great crossed over below 300Hz, I've asked Jess(DD owner) about this and he denies it though and suggested that I'm doing something wrong but this is my second set over a number of years and had the same experience with them before also. I had some Alpine typeX's 6.5" midbasses and they rocked playing up that high, I'll prolly get some more of those eventually. I'm still looking for more volume though and will end up with something closer to your suggestion eventually by installing some 10" midbasses. :kid: Prolly have them play up to around 400Hz, just have to get them in the car and play around with them to find a good crossover range.

[tommymcc]

i personally think 10" would be rather big for a midbass, but if the driver is meant for it and you can make it sound good then my hats off to you

[trebor]

It can be done at least, one of the winningest IASCA cars ever had 12" midbasses playing up to 400Hz, and quite a few others used 10" playing up to 800Hz. No I don't expect to just drop them in and work, matter of fact I may never get it to work cause I'm not gonna spend the money on the kinda drivers I would need to have, it will be more of a learning experience than anything. :kid:

[tommymcc]

were they by chance home audio midbass drivers? i saw a car in USACi's website that had 10" infinity home woofers being used at midbass drivers

[trebor]

No, most that I know of have been pro audio drivers or similiar, USD or JBL. most of the ones that I have actually heard have been USD drivers. This was all in the early nineties, Ive been out of this stuff for a long time but have recently become interested again.

[tommymcc]

sq has changed over the past 4-5 years i've been told, so much new technology is out there now regarding materials, magnets, motor structure, and other stuff like that

it also costs alot more now too

[trebor]

I used to work at Digital Designs. I don't see any drastic changes really, subwoofers are still high distortion devices. Things just look prettier(depends who you ask) with higher power handling I think. As a matter of fact, there were more (fun)processors and servo controlled subwoofers in the late eighties and early nineties. Even most amplifiers were better built/overbuilt back then, many were made in the USA but now everything is built as cheaply as possible in China. Amp distortion now is the same as it was back then. On the plus side though we do have more/cheaper power now. I'll agree that most subs now are more durable. The tweeters I'm using now are the ones I bought back in the early nineties and they are still sold today unchanged, but it a specialty product. Things may have changed, some things have gotten better, my point is that these changes aren't as great as people make them seem. :kid:

[trebor]

it also costs alot more now too

It's pretty pricy! :lol:

[tommymcc]

yeah, i've spent way more going sq than i ever did with spl

[trebor]

SQ to me is much more satisfying. It's all about the music! :up:

[tommymcc]

depends, sq is good for me personally, but nothing is more satisfying than somebody pulling up next to me trying to bump and acting stupid then i just kill their pride and they look away in shame when i fight back

[trebor]

Haha, I'm past that!................mostly, heheh. :rofl2:

I still like it loud

[tommymcc]

still fun though

[um_lunchbox]

Well since I had the opportunity to rebuild my box, I figured I would try and get real competitive with my sql competitions. I am running 8" 3 way mid bass subs in the dash, 6-1/2' mids in the dash and my tweeter components in the A-pillars. These are all DLS, irridium series. I am also using a pair of DLS 12" subs in custom built boxes that fit under my my seats. We managed to bring the entire soundstage to the front of the vehicle, which was an area this vehicle was lacking in with the previous set up I had.

Power wise they are all driven by a pair of DLS a-7's. Here is the equipment breakdown ..

2, 8? DLS Nobelium Separates,
2, DLS Iridium3 Mids
Alpine Mobile Hub Pro VPA-B22
Alpine TME M770s TS Screen, Mounted in the drivers Steering wheel Airbag
Alpine DVA 5210
Alpine PXA 701

With all the custom fabrication we are expecting some challenges because of all the fiberglass work, but are honestly expecting some pretty kick ass results once tuned.

I would love to someday get together with you guys and just jam our cars, you guys seem to know what you are talking about, and thats not to easy to find now a days.

[tommymcc]

i debated doing a midbass under the dash since there is so much room

[trebor]

Well since I had the opportunity to rebuild my box, I figured I would try and get real competitive with my sql competitions. I am running 8" 3 way mid bass subs in the dash, 6-1/2' mids in the dash and my tweeter components in the A-pillars.

Just for consideration, you want to try and get the speakers equidistant from you. Thats why the kickpanels work so well for SQ and Imaging, but you lose alittle volume by having them down there. The dash locations are less than desireable, and the reflections off of the windshield are murder, buy a good equalizer! Midbasses might work in the dash though, depending where they are crossed over and how steep a slope your using. If you don't want anything down around your feet with the possibility of someone putting a foot through your speakers then you don't have much choice I guess. :rofl2:


I would love to someday get together with you guys and just jam our cars, you guys seem to know what you are talking about, and thats not to easy to find now a days.

Definately would be cool! :kid:

[um_lunchbox]

You may have misunderstood what I described to you .. I rebuilt my dashboard .. ahh hell here is a pic of what the dashboard looks like .. enjoy ..

http://upload4.postimage.org/948904/Dashboard.jpg (http://upload4.postimage.org/948904/photo_hosting.html)

[midnightxb]

yo that car is hot

[tommymcc]

i'm just interested in how the speakers are gonna reflect off the window, my tweeters had nasty reflection issues, but tweeters are more directional than the woofers your putting up there, and it seems that the higher range speakers will be angled at the listeners anyways

[um_lunchbox]

I had the luck of having the car a full year on the circuit with the previous set up. It did very well the old way, however I am also lucky to know individuals like Gary Biggs who is a legend in the field, plus I also had some input from the engineers from DLS themselves over see some of this construction. The dash, angles of the dash and placement of the speakers are pretty much catered to the equipment going in. While it looks nice and definately custom, part of the reason for this B's delays is because we are being so precise in the placement of all its audio equipment.

We are building this my B with a take no prisoners attitude. :up:

[trebor]

It certainly looks nice and custom. :up: Will definately be an awsome showpiece!! :bow:

I'm not saying that it CAN'T sound good, but you can't cheat physics either. Your still sitting alot closer to one set of speakers than the other side, sure angling speakers helps on the sound/energy side of things but the time differences between both sides you won't be able to compensate for. And your balance knob won't help much unless you have less than a 12" difference in your pathlengths. Plus your still gonna have nasty reflections off the winshield and dash(it's gonna sound bright with vocals less focused, and most likely a narrow soundstage). Equalization is a must! Please take this as constructive critisim only, your project is WAY beyond any changes now. On the positive side of things, there have been vehicles that have done well with somewhat similiar setups, hope I get to hear yours someday!! :kid:

[tommymcc]

i've wanted to meet biggs for a while, however, the guy who built my kickpanels has built many sets of kicks that went up against biggs installs and won at USACi and IASCA

[um_lunchbox]

No no no .. believe me, your criticism cannot and does not deter me ... I encourage it, in fact you make many vaild points and the equipment I am using in the car is designed to compensate for all those short comings. I have the capabilities to delay sound and of course plenty of equalization to combat problems ... I also have an official sound meter at my infinate disposal, so bet your ass I'll spend hours on the RTA balancing out the system.

Our ultimate goal is to get the sounds projected outside the vehicle, or at least percieved that way, (I'm sure you know what that means). And by no means am I done. Once this vehicle hits the circuit, it begins to get infinately tweeked until it can't be improved anymore.

The bad news is despite all the trouble I have gone through to make a better SQL car, the mear fact that I have things like a keg in the rear and 99% of the car is fiberglass, will present challenges that I may never overcome. In the end I chose to have a show car, but it will still rock the majority of the guys that "Think" thier cars sound good.

So now more than ever I invite you guys to meet up with me at some show and share a beer poured out of the back of my B .. :bow:

[trebor]

Cool cool. :c8l:

I've never competed(well, once just this year at a small spl contest. got third, exgirlfriend took first! lol), merely a long time enthusiast/hobbiest. Delays will definately help, I'm not sure what the rules are now but the old goal used to be to get the car to image well and sound good for the driver and passenger, is that still the way it is now? What are you gonna use for a delay unit? I've been looking for a long time and haven't found anything I like(or can afford) 'cept maybe some of the Alto units, but they dont spec out all that well. I woulda thought audiocontrol would have a digital unit out by now but they don't. By the way, I have their DQXS and it's pretty cool but doesn't sound near as good as my old analog EQX. Think I'm gonna look for some EQT's. :kid:

[tommymcc]

oohhh, your going more for the show car effect rather than the car you drive everyday, well that makes more sense to do it your way than mine

i personally could car less about how my car sounds outside(except rattling), there is a noticable difference in how setup sounds simply by switching from the driver seat to the passenger, i could set it up to aim all the sound to the middle, but thats not where i sit and i dropped the cash so it would sound good to me, currently the passenger side hears the sub more and it sounds over powering, but where i sit it sounds just right, but i just got lucky on that

[um_lunchbox]

Rob .. now the SQ focus is in the drivers seat and only the drivers seat ... as far as sound delay most mid range head units and definately sound processors like the one alpine makes have adjustments to delay sound waves. The Eclipse unit I had previously (2404) was capable of that.

Funny a change for this year ... they will no longer allow sound deadening matting on the dashboard, nor will they allow you to cover the windshield.

The reason behind the windshield cover was to not to isolate the judge from the outside world, kinda dumb, considering they are allowed to close thier eyes, but whatever.

Now fortunately I became an IASCA Judge in order to understand how to build a car, what to listen for, and it gets me the competition disc too .. lol

[tommymcc]

how are the classes setup?

[um_lunchbox]

Here is the long and short of SQL ...

ROOKIE DIVISION

The intent of the Rookie division is to provide a category for consumers to compete in an entry-level contest that mostly evaluates the system?s sound quality and key points of installation quality that promotes a system that is safe to operate. The motivation is to give Rookies more experience to further their knowledge of their own system and mobile electronics overall. Rookie Competitors must have never before competed in an IASCA sanctioned contest.

STREET DIVISION

The intent of the Street Division is to provide a more competitive entry level format for contestants who do not have the inclination or the budget to build a system with an elaborate installation. The Street format focuses on sound and installation quality and does not award points for installation enhancements. The judging in this Division will include standard IASCA RTA and SPL scoring.

Amateur Street Class

The Amateur Street class is designed for and open to all competitors who have obtained their systems through standard retail channels and who have no affiliation or support (sponsorship) from any facet of the Mobile Electronics Industry. The IASCA main office or any IASCA affiliate office may request the competitor to produce such documentation at any time during the competition season.

Semi-Pro Street Class

The Semi-Pro Class is designed to offer a more than basic competition format for contestants who:

may not be employed within the industry, but receives a form of sponsorship and/or discount on equipment from a manufacturer or distributor.

is employed by an electronics store, yet holds the position, for example, of a shipping clerk or bookkeeper, giving them no technological advantage over an amateur but less than a pro.

Pro Street Class

The intent of the Pro Street Class is to provide a more than basic competition format for contestants who work within the Mobile Electronics Industry in the capacity such as installer, salesperson, technician, or any other position that gives them a technological advantage over an Amateur and Semi-Pro.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ULTIMATE DIVISION

The intent of the Ultimate Division is to provide a more competitive format for contestants who have an extraordinary sound system with a more elaborate installation. RTA and SPL testing are not included in this Division. Points are awarded for cosmetic integration and system enhancements.

There are three (3) classifications in the Ultimate Division:

Ultimate Amateur Class

The Ultimate Amateur class is designed for and open to all competitors who have obtained their systems through standard retail channels and who have no affiliation or support (sponsorship) from any facet of the Mobile Electronics Industry. System enhancement points will be awarded on a 15 points Scale (Up to 5 points per item).

Ultimate Pro Class

The Ultimate Pro class is designed for and open to all competitors whether they are affiliated with or have the support of any factions within the Car Audio industry or not. Both Sound Quality and Installation Quality are judged and points will be awarded for system enhancements on a 30 Points Scale (Up to 5 points per item).

Ultimate Expert Class

This class is available to all competitors whether they are affiliated with, or have the support of factions within the Car Audio industry or not. System enhancement points will be awarded on a 50 Points Scale (Up to 5 points per item). A competitor who receives a structured payment or salary from a manufacturer or distributor to build and compete with a system must enter this Division and Class. Once a competitor enters into this class he/she will remain an Expert indefinitely.

[tommymcc]

it says recieves discounts from distibutor for semi-pro, is that just from the regional distro? or does that include getting good discounts from dealers simply because you do lots of good business with them?

i'm also looking towards SQ, not SQL

maybe when i had the 4 10w3's, but not with one 10w6

[trebor]

Lots of goood information there um_lunchbox! :up:

[um_lunchbox]

it says recieves discounts from distibutor for semi-pro, is that just from the regional distro? or does that include getting good discounts from dealers simply because you do lots of good business with them?

i'm also looking towards SQ, not SQL

maybe when i had the 4 10w3's, but not with one 10w6

There is only 2 division SQL or SPL .. what's SQ ? You would definately be a rookie your first year .. no doubt .. after that you can determine what level to proceed into ..

[tommymcc]

treb, bryan told me you were up at audio midwest today, sorry i missed you and that they didn't haven't fully up and running, but it sounds great and looks increadible, i gotta play with the settings a bit since the sub amp is much more powerful than my previous amp

pics soon

as for what class, rookie sounds about right for now, how do i go about signing up and stuff?

[trebor]

Yeah, they had it torn completely apart so I didnt get to hear it at all. Amp rack looks nice! Was fun just hangin' out and talkin' awhile to everyone. Got to look at your kicks, much better in person than your pics show(you need to wash your shit!J/K)!! :up: I'm really looking forward to hearing it, I guess your down to buyin' an eq soon, what have you been looking at?

[tommymcc]

i would've washed it, but every chance i get we're supposed to get rain, or its gonna be in the shop getting covered in saw dust like today

here are the finished pics

since i can't get the images to link right you have to do it yourself

http://www.carstereo.com/installs/photo_gallery_album.cfm?galleryid=2537