F**********CK!! I'm so irritated! - Turbo Talk

[2dot4]

I was going to get my car tuned this weekend - woohoo, right? So I get paid today and give the shop a call, who I called early last week to make sure they could tune my car. When I called last week the guy said "yeah, if you provide the software, we can tune it for $100/hour - expect 2 hours." So my response was "good, I can afford that, but I want to keep it as close to 2 hours as possible." so he says "that's fine - we work with people all the time." I said "ok, I can do $200." so he says "sounds good, just come schedule an appointment when you're ready" - end of convo.

Well I call back today to make the appointment for tomorrow, and they pull out the "oh, my bad - it's gonna take 5-6 hours to tune an e-manage" card, which means $500-$600! fuck that nonsense! I was so stoked that they were going to tune my car and then they pull this bullshit.

So does anyone know how to tune an e-manage? I have a wideband, so I can do a basic wideband tune - I just don't know what the fuck I'm doing otherwise.

Man I'm in a bad mood today.

[fightinsk8ers]

sucks bro

[Krdshrk]

They're full of BS. 5-6 hours to tune a piggyback my ass? You just need like 3-5 dyno runs and that's it.

[2dot4]

I talked to High-Tuned Performance, which is about 45 minutes away from me, and the last time I called, which was back in August, they told me $200 on the nose - I told them all I had was $200, and I needed to wideband tune my e-manage. He said it was cool, so I called them again last night to schedule an appointment, but they dont' answer the phone on saturdays because it's by appointment only, so I left a message - I'm hoping they call me back on Monday and say they'll do it for $200. I need this done so badly!

I'm tired of getting screwed by people.

[crank_101]

what are you running right now ? is it running shitty? or can't wait?

i tuned my srt-4 just by driving it around the block and on the freeway, but then again it is neon how hard could it be lol. mine ran like shit but it was still spanking stock evo's and stock sti's .


and when you tune your car make sure you tune it for what you want not what your mechanic wants:razz:

[Krdshrk]

He wants to dyno tune it, not street tune. Plus he doesn't have his wideband fully hooked up yet so he can't street tune anyway.

[THansenite]

There is no way it would take 5-6 hours to to get an eManage tuned. Like Nick said, half a dozen runs TOPS to tune the car. They are just trying to get more of your money. If it takes a shop 5-6 hours to tune an eManage, you need to stay far away from that shop.

[crank_101]

He wants to dyno tune it, not street tune. Plus he doesn't have his wideband fully hooked up yet so he can't street tune anyway.

i see what your saying,


i am curious, can the tc run decent with a street tune?

[crank_101]

They are just trying to get more of your money. If it takes a shop 5-6 hours to tune an eManage, you need to stay far away from that shop.

x2

[THansenite]

i see what your saying,


i am curious, can the tc run decent with a street tune?

It can run, probably not decent though. You'll want to get your car tuned if you add a turbo to it.

[crank_101]

:offtopic:manual or auto boost control?


i had a manual boost controller in my srt-4 it worked nice, however i have no experience with toyotas so i am not sure how the tc works yet.

[Krdshrk]

You can do street tuning, but it's not as effective.

I have a manual boost controller, myself. It spikes and then holds.... not sure if I like it like that.

[crank_101]

yeah i drove a supra twin turbo with auto transmission, he had a manual boost controller that held boost like no other. i have heard diff things about the manual boost in the tc, and it all depends on what the driver likes.

[Krdshrk]

It depends on the boost controller. I have the TurboXS basic MBC.... it's ok.

I didn't spend much on it. If I had spent more and gotten a better model, it would hold boost better.

[crank_101]

how many pounds of boost can run max?

[Krdshrk]

It depends on the turbo/supercharger you're using. It's not about the boost... you could have a tiny turbine and high boost, but still be only making as much power as a larger turbo. That's why ZPI people had their boost up around 12PSI making as much power as Dezod/Turbonetics people running 9PSI.

[crank_101]

ohhh i see

[rhythmnsmoke]

i see what your saying,


i am curious, can the tc run decent with a street tune?


It can run, probably not decent though. You'll want to get your car tuned if you add a turbo to it.


All my car ever had was a street tune. For a year it was street tuned without a wideband. Still whooped on STI's and Evo's though..lol

[rhythmnsmoke]

It depends on the turbo/supercharger you're using. It's not about the boost... you could have a tiny turbine and high boost, but still be only making as much power as a larger turbo. That's why ZPI people had their boost up around 12PSI making as much power as Dezod/Turbonetics people running 9PSI.


That's way off dude. ZPI (at the time) used the 16G. It dyno's the same amount of HP as Dezod/Turbonetics kits do. 9 PSI on a Dezod or Tnetics will put down the same amount of HP the 16G does on 9 PSI.

One of my club members has the Dezod kit, but he has the larger TEA turbo on it. He actually put down LESS whp on the same dyno I did, and he was running 1 PSI more.

This is why I always say you can never judge a car by what it puts down on a dyno.

[2dot4]

Mr. Meaty is running 5psi making 252whp on a Turbo Toyotas kit. Bigger turbo means bigger power on less boost.

You're saying small turbos make the same power on less boost, but that's with different tunes on different kits.

That's like me saying my 4cyl is better than any v8. while I'm faster than most v8s now, My potential is limited to 600hp, whereas a v8 can easily peak 1000hp.

It all depends on the application - I smoked the fuck out of a turbo tC running 7psi on a zpi stage 0 the other day. So smaller doesn't equal better.

I'm not doing this fucking argument again. You take the 16g and have fun with it.

[_Keith_]

ITs all about efficeny not turbo size guys.

Just because your bigger turbo has higher HP/TQ output on a dyno doesnt mean its gonna win... Every part comes into play and lag comes into play alot...

Running a smaller turbo is good till you get to that efficent point where its now just hurting the car... Once you go outside that ban its useless...

Each way has its plus and minus.

[2dot4]

hitting peak boost at 3000rpms isn't efficient at all.

small turbines are easy to spin but aren't big enough to produce the cfms to create power, either.

higher displacement requires a larger turbo to feed the engine throughout the entire powerband. .63 is ideal for a 2.4L engine.

a .83 a/r turbo would be useless on a 2.4L with a 6000rpm redline.

I hit peak boost in my .63 a/r turbo at about 4500rpms, which carries the power beautifully to redline. I can't imagine anything more ideal for this motor.

I rode in a turbo tC running a 16g on 6psi, and there is an obvious power "plateau" at about 4000rpms. Quite annoying.

[rhythmnsmoke]

Mr. Meaty is running 5psi making 252whp on a Turbo Toyotas kit. Bigger turbo means bigger power on less boost.

You're saying small turbos make the same power on less boost, but that's with different tunes on different kits.

That's like me saying my 4cyl is better than any v8. while I'm faster than most v8s now, My potential is limited to 600hp, whereas a v8 can easily peak 1000hp.

It all depends on the application - I smoked the fuck out of a turbo tC running 7psi on a zpi stage 0 the other day. So smaller doesn't equal better.

I'm not doing this fucking argument again. You take the 16g and have fun with it.


Mr. Meaty doesn't have Dezod or Turbonetics either does he? Yeah didn't think so. Again, DYNO's show different numbers period. If he would go to a different dyno, I will put up $100 bucks that it won't put down 252whp on 5 PSI. It's a dyno dude, they all read different. I didn't say small turbos make the same power on the same boost. I SPECIFICALLY said the 16G makes the same power as the Turbonetics turbo, and the Standard Stage 1 kit that Dezod sells. Lets not take it past that. I'm not stupid, Obviously something like a GT35R at 10 PSI is going to pump out more than a 16G at 10 PSI.

Your bragging about beating a Stage 0....BAHHAHAAAAAAA!!!! That's to funny.

Plain and Simple, Dyno's mean sqwat and are only good for tunning and bragging rights.

Case in point. Using the same dyno on different days, my club members Dezod (with TEA which is bigger than the Standard S1 turbo that comes with the Dezod kit), on 8 PSI had his car with an 11's A/F ratio and put down 240 whp. On our ZPI Stage 1 kit, on 7 PSI (one PSI less), we put down 250whp. 10whp MORE with 1 PSI less. But what does that mean? It means that dynos can not be used to compare similarly performing turbos.

[rhythmnsmoke]

ITs all about efficeny not turbo size guys.

Just because your bigger turbo has higher HP/TQ output on a dyno doesnt mean its gonna win... Every part comes into play and lag comes into play alot...

Running a smaller turbo is good till you get to that efficent point where its now just hurting the car... Once you go outside that ban its useless...

Each way has its plus and minus.


2dot4 has that Civic mentality, it's pointless to try and tell him other wise. To him, Bigger is always better.

[rhythmnsmoke]

hitting peak boost at 3000rpms isn't efficient at all.

small turbines are easy to spin but aren't big enough to produce the cfms to create power, either.

higher displacement requires a larger turbo to feed the engine throughout the entire powerband. .63 is ideal for a 2.4L engine.

a .83 a/r turbo would be useless on a 2.4L with a 6000rpm redline.

I hit peak boost in my .63 a/r turbo at about 4500rpms, which carries the power beautifully to redline. I can't imagine anything more ideal for this motor.

I rode in a turbo tC running a 16g on 6psi, and there is an obvious power "plateau" at about 4000rpms. Quite annoying.


You need to do some more researching and stop using the Stage 0 as a bench mark for the 16G turbo. You need to start looking at the Stage 1's as they have what it takes to walk on your "Bigger is better" mentality. At least mine does....LOL.

[_Keith_]

2dot4 has that Civic mentality, it's pointless to try and tell him other wise. To him, Bigger is always better.


seems most do... and to tell me its not about effiecny just proves it.

I should give this link to my boy or let him log in as me and just go off about this stuff...

Hes got the chart on his wall for a turbo.. just to explain it to people that dont listen.

[2dot4]

rythym, your agrument was that the 16g produces the same power as the dezod turbo - I have a turbo with the exact same specs as a dezod turbo.

I wasn't bragging - I was showing that 7psi on a 16g isn't the same as 7 psi on a dezod turbo. my larger turbo won that race...was it my downpipe that made the difference? maybe the BOV? how about my intake filter? Not the turbo - can't be, because the 16g owns all I guess.

You like to say smaller is better but your arguments all change - "this kit is better, but if you have proof that your kit is faster, it's not the turbo at all - it's the name of the kit". Great argument. Tell me more funny stories.

Explain to me why the 16g is the ultimate turbo. I'd love to hear it. If quick spool is your only point, then I'm sorry, but there's more to a turbo than racing to peak boost - cfm is one, not to mention a progressive powerband.

If I prove that 7psi produces more power on a larger turbo, you come up with every fucking excuse to deny it. Sounds like the problems on your end, bud.

You put the 16g on a pedestal but offer absolutely no reason why. Just cause you have one, I guess that makes you the winner - go you!

And keith, I agree with your efficiency statement - I was saying that the 16g isn't efficient on a 2.4L at all.

Just because I don't agree with your theories about the 16g being the God of Turbos doesn't mean I'm wrong. It just means you have your opinions and I have mine.

taken from turbobygarret.com....

Imagine two 3.5L engines both using GT30R turbochargers. The only difference between the two engines is a different turbine housing A/R; otherwise the two engines are identical:
1. Engine #1 has turbine housing with an A/R of 0.63
2. Engine #2 has a turbine housing with an A/R of 1.06.
What can we infer about the intended use and the turbocharger matching for each engine?

Engine#1: This engine is using a smaller A/R turbine housing (0.63) thus biased more towards low-end torque and optimal boost response. Many would describe this as being more "fun" to drive on the street, as normal daily driving habits tend to favor transient response. However, at higher engine speeds, this smaller A/R housing will result in high backpressure, which can result in a loss of top end power. This type of engine performance is desirable for street applications where the low speed boost response and transient conditions are more important than top end power.

Engine #2: This engine is using a larger A/R turbine housing (1.06) and is biased towards peak horsepower, while sacrificing transient response and torque at very low engine speeds. The larger A/R turbine housing will continue to minimize backpressure at high rpm, to the benefit of engine peak power. On the other hand, this will also raise the engine speed at which the turbo can provide boost, increasing time to boost. The performance of Engine #2 is more desirable for racing applications than Engine #1 where the engine will be operating at high engine speeds most of the time.

Like I said in our last awesome discussion - smaller turbos give you that high torque feeling and are more fun to drive, but larger turbos produce more usefull hp and are used in racing applications.

I'm not being bull-headed or close-minded. I understand your infatuation with the 16g, but it's not the king of turbos by any means. It's small and designed for acceleration - that's it. You can try and use it for peak power, but don't expect more than 350hp.

Oh and by the way, I agree that a larger turbo doesn't always win, but I'm not running a 1.06 a/r turbo. Put me up against a tc with an untuned 16g running the same boost, and I'll win everytime. (And rythym, that's done so we can eliminate any variable other than turbo size ok? Does that make sense or do you need a little help?). A .63 a/r turbo is far more efficient for a 2.4L than a 16g. Always will be. The 16g sacrafices efficiency for low-end power.

I don't give a fuck if you agree with me - I know I'm not wrong, and there are hundreds of resources that back me up - you should check out google sometime, buddy...or hell, call garrett and ask them for a turbo size to displacement cross reference. the 16g is designed for a 1.8L to 2.0L engine....kinda like the EVOIII it came from! OMG! Amazing how that works.

[2dot4]

You need to do some more researching and stop using the Stage 0 as a bench mark for the 16G turbo. You need to start looking at the Stage 1's as they have what it takes to walk on your "Bigger is better" mentality. At least mine does....LOL.

Yeah, 7psi untuned vs 10 psi intercooled and tuned with injectors. I guess the 16g is better because it came out of a box pushing more boost.

Do you even know what your argument is? Are you comparing boost? turbo size? intercooled vs non? custom tune vs. untuned? 550cc injectors vs 370cc injectors?

Cause you say the 16g is better, but all your examples of tC's running 16g's are running more boost with an intercoolerm, injectors and a custom tune, but you compare them to my kit running 7psi untuned non-intercooled. I don't think you understand how that doesn't validate your point.

You make fun of me for comparing my kit to a stage 0, but you're comparing your kit to mine - woohoo! If I were running 20psi then my turbo is better than yours cause I'd obviously be faster, right? Check your argument before you hit send, smart guy.

[rhythmnsmoke]

seems most do... and to tell me its not about effiecny just proves it.

I should give this link to my boy or let him log in as me and just go off about this stuff...

Hes got the chart on his wall for a turbo.. just to explain it to people that dont listen.



Thank you. I recall having this battle with him before about turbo efficency. Big turbos benefit from built motors, because they have the needed components to actually REACH the turbo's efficency range. Sure you can buy one to save on cost, but some try to preach about how it's better even on a stock motor....lol.

[rhythmnsmoke]

rythym, your agrument was that the 16g produces the same power as the dezod turbo - I have a turbo with the exact same specs as a dezod turbo.

It's not an argument dude, just go dig up the dyno sheets.


I wasn't bragging - I was showing that 7psi on a 16g isn't the same as 7 psi on a dezod turbo. my larger turbo won that race...was it my downpipe that made the difference? maybe the BOV? how about my intake filter? Not the turbo - can't be, because the 16g owns all I guess.

LOL....You want to compare a Stage 0 to your kit or Dezod's, when NEITHER of the two are on the same playing field. News Flash, 7 PSI on a Stage 0 with a 16G does not equal the same 7 PSI on a Stage 1 that comes with All the components that your kit has and that of Dezod's. Stop trying to pick the lowest form/combination used with the 16G. AGAIN....as I said before, you want to compare, you need to look at 16G's that are running on Stage 1's.


You like to say smaller is better but your arguments all change - "this kit is better, but if you have proof that your kit is faster, it's not the turbo at all - it's the name of the kit". Great argument. Tell me more funny stories. Explain to me why the 16g is the ultimate turbo. I'd love to hear it. If quick spool is your only point, then I'm sorry, but there's more to a turbo than racing to peak boost - cfm is one, not to mention a progressive powerband.

WHAT are you even talking about? When and where did I say smaller is better? For a stock motor....ok, pay attention....for a STOCK motor, the smaller turbo is within its efficency range, where as your bigger turbo is not. When the motor is built, you will be able to utilize the turbo better. And at that point, it is optimal to run a larger turbo than a 16G. BEEN saying that, HAVE said that, but you never listen.


If I prove that 7psi produces more power on a larger turbo, you come up with every fucking excuse to deny it. Sounds like the problems on your end, bud.

Dyno numbers don't mean sqwat bro. Unless it's some ASTRONOMICAL number. Performance is what matters. And so far the only thing you pull out of your hat is a Stage 0 comparison (which is NOT a fully equipped kit) to that of a fully equipped kit...lol. That's weak sauce man. And try to refrain from cursin, I keep my cool, so no need for the harsh talk. We are just having a debate man...lol.


You put the 16g on a pedestal but offer absolutely no reason why. Just cause you have one, I guess that makes you the winner - go you!

And keith, I agree with your efficiency statement - I was saying that the 16g isn't efficient on a 2.4L at all.

It's more efficient than yours....lol. Ever seen track numbers from Dezod themselves? Did you actually watch the video's they put out when they first came out with their S1 kit? Bigger is better right? Then how do you explain me running the same 1/4 mile times on 9-10 PSI that Joe Dezod did on 11.5? Again, it's not all about the dyno numbers. And again, the S1 (Dezod kit), puts down on average a variance of 5 whp Give or take a few to that of a Stage 1 kit.



Just because I don't agree with your theories about the 16g being the God of Turbos doesn't mean I'm wrong. It just means you have your opinions and I have mine.

Again, you try to play to far into what I say. Read for a change.


taken from turbobygarret.com....

Imagine two 3.5L engines both using GT30R turbochargers. The only difference between the two engines is a different turbine housing A/R; otherwise the two engines are identical:
1. Engine #1 has turbine housing with an A/R of 0.63
2. Engine #2 has a turbine housing with an A/R of 1.06.
What can we infer about the intended use and the turbocharger matching for each engine?

Engine#1: This engine is using a smaller A/R turbine housing (0.63) thus biased more towards low-end torque and optimal boost response. Many would describe this as being more "fun" to drive on the street, as normal daily driving habits tend to favor transient response. However, at higher engine speeds, this smaller A/R housing will result in high backpressure, which can result in a loss of top end power. This type of engine performance is desirable for street applications where the low speed boost response and transient conditions are more important than top end power.

Engine #2: This engine is using a larger A/R turbine housing (1.06) and is biased towards peak horsepower, while sacrificing transient response and torque at very low engine speeds. The larger A/R turbine housing will continue to minimize backpressure at high rpm, to the benefit of engine peak power. On the other hand, this will also raise the engine speed at which the turbo can provide boost, increasing time to boost. The performance of Engine #2 is more desirable for racing applications than Engine #1 where the engine will be operating at high engine speeds most of the time.

Like I said in our last awesome discussion - smaller turbos give you that high torque feeling and are more fun to drive, but larger turbos produce more usefull hp and are used in racing applications.

And when you translate that to the actual RACE track, they differences OFFSET each other. Because the smaller one takes off and leaves you, and the larger one is playing catch up. The smaller is falling off up top, as the larger turbine is just now coming into range. What does that mean? That means that when they cross the finish line, they will be within .10ths of a second in ET and a few mph difference in Trap Speed. I've seen it bro. Brett (not sure if you know him), has a built motor tC. First he was running the Stage 1. 16G made 28whp LESS hp than his current Turbo Toyotas kit does now. 28whp difference is NOT enough to change the 1/4 mile times of a car. And he is an example of that. As with the 16G he ran a 12.6 @ 112mph. On is LARGER, MORE HP (28whp more), MORE Efficient turbo kit, he ran a 12.7 @ 110. Why is that? Reason.....the smaller turbo spooled a lot faster and getting him out of the hole faster but falling off at the top. The larger turbo was later getting out of the hole, and came on up top. The turbo benefits and weaknesses OFFSET each other. Had he been pushing MORE HP (at least 60-100whp more) THEN he would have seen that track time improve better. So, in this example, the 16G holds it's own, and was even a tenth faster and 2 mph quicker. AGAIN, Bigger is NOT always Better, but it CAN be.




I'm not being bull-headed or close-minded. I understand your infatuation with the 16g, but it's not the king of turbos by any means. It's small and designed for acceleration - that's it. You can try and use it for peak power, but don't expect more than 350hp.

LOL....That just tells me that you really don't know to much about the 16G. As 380-400whp is it's max HP range. Brett dynoed his 16G on a built motor at I believe 375whp on a low reading dyno.


Oh and by the way, I agree that a larger turbo doesn't always win, but I'm not running a 1.06 a/r turbo. Put me up against a tc with an untuned 16g running the same boost, and I'll win everytime.


BHAHBABAAAA!!!! I'm sorry that's just to funny of a statement right there. Why did you throw in the untuned part? That's like saying I'll go up against a Blind man at the AutoX track, and I'll win everytime!!! I'm sorry that's just to funny. You do know that a Tuned 16G will out run an untuned 16G right? Stop comparing yourself to the lowest form. Like saying you will beat a retarded kid at a math contest.



(And rythym, that's done so we can eliminate any variable other than turbo size ok? Does that make sense or do you need a little help?). A .63 a/r turbo is far more efficient for a 2.4L than a 16g. Always will be. The 16g sacrafices efficiency for low-end power.

I don't give a fuck if you agree with me - I know I'm not wrong, and there are hundreds of resources that back me up - you should check out google sometime, buddy...or hell, call garrett and ask them for a turbo size to displacement cross reference. the 16g is designed for a 1.8L to 2.0L engine....kinda like the EVOIII it came from! OMG! Amazing how that works.


"I know I'm not wrong".....I think I just found your problem...lol. I don't need to call Garrett. All I need to do is go to the track, or watch people with larger turbos duke it out at the track with the smaller 16G guys. Would you like to see a drag race between a Turbonetics Kit, and a Stage 1 kit both on 7-8 PSI of boost? Cause I have one for you if you want to see it.

Stop Bench Racing, it never looks good on you.

[rhythmnsmoke]

Yeah, 7psi untuned vs 10 psi intercooled and tuned with injectors. I guess the 16g is better because it came out of a box pushing more boost.

Do you even know what your argument is? Are you comparing boost? turbo size? intercooled vs non? custom tune vs. untuned? 550cc injectors vs 370cc injectors?

Cause you say the 16g is better, but all your examples of tC's running 16g's are running more boost with an intercoolerm, injectors and a custom tune, but you compare them to my kit running 7psi untuned non-intercooled. I don't think you understand how that doesn't validate your point.

You make fun of me for comparing my kit to a stage 0, but you're comparing your kit to mine - woohoo! If I were running 20psi then my turbo is better than yours cause I'd obviously be faster, right? Check your argument before you hit send, smart guy.


FYI.....The Stage 1 NEVER came on the 10 PSI setting. It came with the same Wastegate spring as the Stage 0's do (which is a 6 PSI spring by the way, not 7), but you also got the 9-10 PSI spring with the kit. It just didn't come pre-installed with 10 lbs of boost. And the Example I gave you are that of MY car on the same PSI as a Dezod kit, making the same power, and running actually faster down the 1/4 mile. I also gave you an example of a built motor 16G turbo equipped car running the 1/4 mile and then the SAME car with a bigger turbo system running basically the same 1/4 mile time.

Difference between you and me, is that I go by REAL world experiences, where you, you just read the brochures and automatically believe it. Wake up and smell the coffee man. I'm not over estimating what the 16G can do, you are underestimating it. And your only example of proof is an untuned, incomplete kit vs your complete kit....LOL. There are Stage 1 kits that run 7-8 PSI man. I ran at that boost for nearly a year. All my wins against other cars were on that boost level, NOT 10 PSI.

Custom tuned Stage 1's? HUH? LOL....if you call getting your car tuned, custom tuning, that would mean EVERYone who is boosted 16G, T3/T4, or whatever...all have custom tunes...lol.

[2dot4]

The reason I compare my kit to the stage 0 is because it's the same kit with a bigger turbo. I'm not intercooled, I have no tune, I have a log-style manifold, and I'm using a lot of ZPI components. Why would I compare my kit to a stage 1 running more boost with an intercooler, injectors, and a tune? Not really sure how that makes any sense to you. Just because a smaller turbo is running more boost doesn't make it a better turbo than the kit with a larger turbo running less boost. You're the one telling me NOT to compare an incomplete kit to a complete kit...but there you go.

That's my whole point - you're the one who's comparing incomplete kits to complete kits - I'm offering situations where the only difference is the turbo size, which is our argument, right? Exactly. All you're saying is "the 16g on this KIT runs faster ETs than the larger turbo on this KIT" - that doesn't say anything about the turbo size - it just says the 16g KIT is running different tunes with different sized injectors, and/or with different amounts of boost. That proves nothing. Take two similar kits with different sized turbos - Perfect example - my untuned, non-intercooled .63 a/r turbo kit and the ZPI's untuned, non-intercooled 16g kit. They're the same kit - the only difference is the size of the turbo and the amount of boost. I could race a stage 1...even if they were running 7psi, but they have a tune, I don't. They have an intercooler, I don't. That wouldn't be a fair judgment of turbo size at all. It would just say that the stage 1 is more complete than my kit. Which is obvious. I could easily outrun a stage 1 if I were running twice the boost it was, so that says nothing for your argument.

You use real world experiences with SHIT LOADS of variables, where I use logic and general understanding of F/I. Like you said yourself, there's no situation where the driver and the car are the same. So why are your real world experiences supposed to make any difference in your argument? They just prove that different drivers, different cars, and different turbo kit components provide different results. Not that the 16g is most efficient.

Oh, and before I finish, I do want you to answer a couple things for me.

If my turbo spools at 2500rpms and hits peak boost at 4500rpms, creating power all the way to 5800rpms, then explain why that makes my turbo inefficient on my stock 2.4L.

What are you debating? That the 16g is a better turbo on the 2.4L, or that more complete KITs equipped with the 16g are better?

Oh and by the way, I know you got your turbo with a pretuned piggyback out of a box, but for those of us who want the most out of our car, every tune is custom - it goes off specific AFRs from our car and the decision to tune lean or rich...so for those of us who don't buy pre-tuned kits, it is custom. BTW - custom means "made to individual specifications" in case you were wondering.

[rhythmnsmoke]

The reason I compare my kit to the stage 0 is because it's the same kit with a bigger turbo. I'm not intercooled, I have no tune, I have a log-style manifold, and I'm using a lot of ZPI components. Why would I compare my kit to a stage 1 running more boost with an intercooler, injectors, and a tune? Not really sure how that makes any sense to you. Just because a smaller turbo is running more boost doesn't make it a better turbo than the kit with a larger turbo running less boost. You're the one telling me NOT to compare an incomplete kit to a complete kit...but there you go.

That's my whole point - you're the one who's comparing incomplete kits to complete kits - I'm offering situations where the only difference is the turbo size, which is our argument, right? Exactly. All you're saying is "the 16g on this KIT runs faster ETs than the larger turbo on this KIT" - that doesn't say anything about the turbo size - it just says the 16g KIT is running different tunes with different sized injectors, and/or with different amounts of boost. That proves nothing. Take two similar kits with different sized turbos - Perfect example - my untuned, non-intercooled .63 a/r turbo kit and the ZPI's untuned, non-intercooled 16g kit. They're the same kit - the only difference is the size of the turbo and the amount of boost. I could race a stage 1...even if they were running 7psi, but they have a tune, I don't. They have an intercooler, I don't. That wouldn't be a fair judgment of turbo size at all. It would just say that the stage 1 is more complete than my kit. Which is obvious. I could easily outrun a stage 1 if I were running twice the boost it was, so that says nothing for your argument.

You use real world experiences with SHIT LOADS of variables, where I use logic and general understanding of F/I. Like you said yourself, there's no situation where the driver and the car are the same. So why are your real world experiences supposed to make any difference in your argument? They just prove that different drivers, different cars, and different turbo kit components provide different results. Not that the 16g is most efficient.

Oh, and before I finish, I do want you to answer a couple things for me.

If my turbo spools at 2500rpms and hits peak boost at 4500rpms, creating power all the way to 5800rpms, then explain why that makes my turbo inefficient on my stock 2.4L.

What are you debating? That the 16g is a better turbo on the 2.4L, or that more complete KITs equipped with the 16g are better?




You never told me you were non-intercooled, non-tuned, and stock injectors. Did not know that. In the case of Dezod, and Tnetics kits, they don't come incomplete, so you have to compare them to a Stage 1.

When are you going to post up your 1/4 mile times? Or is the season closed where you live?

Just incase you didn't know, the fastest Stage 0 has ran a 13.9 @ (forget trap speed) in the 1/4 mile. That's untuned, no management, and stock injectors.

Don't say you can out run a Stage 1, until you actually post up 1/4 mile times. Get to the track and post faster than a 13.9 if you want to say you are faster than all Stage 0's as well. The tune coming on the engine managements from turbo kit providers are just a basic tune. The buyer has to actually take their car to a tuner to say it's tuned. So, not all Stage 1's are tuned, nor are they tuned when you recieve it. It's just a base tune just like Dezod, Turbonetics, and every other kit comes with.

I was untuned when I ran 13.5 @ 108 on my kit. I was running flat 10.0's A/F ratio, which really sucks let me tell ya....lol.

Did you read the Real world experience I gave you about Brett's car? Same driver, Same car, Same track, Same motor, only variable is two different turbo kits. Not many of that kind of situation has occured, but in that case, he ran basically the same times.

As for your efficiency question, I didn't say your turbo was NON-efficient. I said it was not AS...I repeat AS efficient as it "should" be because it's not being used on a built motor. The 16G is smaller, so it does not need a built motor to reach it's effective range. The displacement alone will push the 16G into its effective range. You should study turbo flow charts, that will help you understand better.

Found this link:

http://www.automotivearticles.com/123/Turbo_Selection.shtml



Oh and by the way, I know you got your turbo with a pretuned piggyback out of a box, but for those of us who want the most out of our car, every tune is custom - it goes off specific AFRs from our car and the decision to tune lean or rich...so for those of us who don't buy pre-tuned kits, it is custom. BTW - custom means "made to individual specifications" in case you were wondering.

Actually, my kit is "made to my individual specifications". I only live 3 hrs from where ZPI use to run shop. I drove to ZPI and had my kit built ON my car, not ordered from the site with a pre-tune and installed. My car was tuned after the kit was built on it. Obviously I have the same components as the Stage 1, but some pipe routing I had changed and the turbo clocked. Thanks for the thought, but I'm not as you described. Don't assume things. I do want the most, but as you posted the link from Garrett, smaller faster spooling turbos are the best for the street. So, for a stock motor, I am pretty confident in the capabilities of the 16G. And even for the track, it's capable of 12secs down the 1/4 mile. So, when I'm ready for 11's, then I will have a bigger turbo.

[kris5597]

damn this is some shit. always ppl argueing and then there is always someone else to come in like me and talk lol. sounds like yall both have experience on it all. but see my prob is, is that i have a 100,000 mile warranty and only 15000 on my car so yea its gonna be a while till i turbo my car. so idk whatever comes first paying it off or warranty but def gonna go with turbo. 2dot4 gave me a good perspective on a turbo and the way to go and i thank you dude. but now ima leave and get out of the middle of this just remember guys... we are all in the same club so kinda pointless to argue.

[rhythmnsmoke]

Warranty? What's that....LOL.

[kris5597]

yea i know i wana say fuck it but i cant. i paid 2000 dollars for it but i def regret it i could have put that towards a turbo ya know

[crank_101]

Doctor turbo (2dot4) is awesome......he knows a lot... everyone don't argue!

[2dot4]

lol, I've been saying I'm untuned and non-intercooled for a while - spin back through the posts. No worries though.

Season's closed here - just got about 10" of snow last night and the night before combined. I fully intend on heading to the track, but tires gotta get swapped first - I blew through my stockers. Plus I don't want to waste a trip to run the 1/4 without a tune. Those are my excuses.

I know I can't beat a stage 1 running 10psi, I wouldn't ever say I could....at least not with my current setup.

I guess I disagree with your efficiency statement because I don't feel like my turbo is inneficient at all - it starts creating boost at 2500rpms, and peaks at 4500rpms, and creates power all the way to 5800rpms. All within my powerband. So the turbo functions properly in the motor's range. Just because it takes a second longer to create boost, I wouldn't say it's less efficient than a 16g, or that I need a built motor to release it's potential. the 16g starts working sooner, but it doesn't feed the powerband to redline. Mine starts a fraction of a second later and works throughout the entire powerband. So I guess that's why I disagree, but as we determined in our last debate, it doesn't really matter - 12 second ETs are 12 second ETs - doesn't matter how you get there.

So let's go have a beer and chill. :beer:

[2dot4]

EDIT: Got a little "Send-happy" resulting in a multi-post, sorry.

[2dot4]

EDIT: multi-post, sorry.

[2dot4]

EDIT: multi-post, sorry.

[TunerTrifecta]

Holy quadruple post Eric.

I'm keeping the tC (don't remember if I already posted that somewhere or not...seems like I did) and it will be "custom" boosted before the Asylum show using an MKIII stock turbo with a 57 trim wheel, DBB style :) Should be interesting. I'm going to see if one of my old supra buddies that does downpipes will custom fab me one--they're dead sexy. We're gonna have to talk about where you got your turbo manifold, and a what a good one to go with is!

[rhythmnsmoke]

lol, I've been saying I'm untuned and non-intercooled for a while - spin back through the posts. No worries though.

Season's closed here - just got about 10" of snow last night and the night before combined. I fully intend on heading to the track, but tires gotta get swapped first - I blew through my stockers. Plus I don't want to waste a trip to run the 1/4 without a tune. Those are my excuses.

I know I can't beat a stage 1 running 10psi, I wouldn't ever say I could....at least not with my current setup.

I guess I disagree with your efficiency statement because I don't feel like my turbo is inneficient at all - it starts creating boost at 2500rpms, and peaks at 4500rpms, and creates power all the way to 5800rpms. All within my powerband. So the turbo functions properly in the motor's range. Just because it takes a second longer to create boost, I wouldn't say it's less efficient than a 16g, or that I need a built motor to release it's potential. the 16g starts working sooner, but it doesn't feed the powerband to redline. Mine starts a fraction of a second later and works throughout the entire powerband. So I guess that's why I disagree, but as we determined in our last debate, it doesn't really matter - 12 second ETs are 12 second ETs - doesn't matter how you get there.

So let's go have a beer and chill. :beer:


Kool. The interesting thing though is that whenever I race someone, their immediate comments are...."Dang you got some top end on that car"..:D

[2dot4]

They tell me the same thing lol

[kris5597]

shit i wish my car was fast. still got a lot of work to do though. hopefully when im done doing bolt ons it will be fast enough (doubt it) until my warranty is up.

[kris5597]

hey 2dot4 what are your nology hot wires? and how do u like the B and G springs they any good? and how much do they lower it? price?

[TunerTrifecta]

Bolt-ons...pfffffffffft lol

APU++ ftw.
BPU/BPU+/BPU++ FTL.

[2dot4]

Brandon, I don't follow your acronyms lol

Kris, I paid $209 for the springs shipped - I looooove them! The best springs I've used so far. They drop the car 1.75" front and rear. Soooo awesome! highly recommended.

My nology hotwires - I'm not sure what your question is...I paid like $210 for em, and they're nice looking, but offer no gains or anything...just something I spent money on cause I was bored.

[TunerTrifecta]

BPU=Bolt-on Parts Upgrades
APU=Advanced Parts Upgrades

APU includes adding things that weren't originally there in my book, such as turbos :)

[rhythmnsmoke]

BPU=Bolt-on Parts Upgrades
APU=Advanced Parts Upgrades

APU includes adding things that weren't originally there in my book, such as turbos :)


I'm use to the Toyota Supra guys calling things BPU meaning Basic Performance Upgrades.

[TunerTrifecta]

I am one of the supra guys lol. Or formerly was. bolt-on and basic are used interchangeably

[kris5597]

i wish i can say i was a supra guy lol. i live in louisiana and i think ive seen one maybe 2 supras on or off the road in my whole life lol. which aint to good of odds lol

[TunerTrifecta]

The odds that the thing would stay running are even worse lol

[trrbo_tc]

haha, 2dot4 mentioned the 16g came from the evoIII ...

that what my turbo has stamped on it.

EVOIII :)

i'm just worried about acceleration, out here in los angeles, if you get caught street racing they take your car away and crush it at the junkyard in front of you.

so im only worried about boosting and accelrating quickly and then slowing down ..

hence my plans indicate a 16g turbo for quick pickup and wilwood 4 piston brakes front and back for quick braking.

:) yay :)

[rhythmnsmoke]

haha, 2dot4 mentioned the 16g came from the evoIII ...

that what my turbo has stamped on it.

EVOIII :)

i'm just worried about acceleration, out here in los angeles, if you get caught street racing they take your car away and crush it at the junkyard in front of you.

so im only worried about boosting and accelrating quickly and then slowing down ..

hence my plans indicate a 16g turbo for quick pickup and wilwood 4 piston brakes front and back for quick braking.

:) yay :)


You want to brake quick, you are going to have to add a good set of rubber just as much as rotors and pistons. Tires are going to have to be top quality.

[TunerTrifecta]

and a good set of brake lines as well. Rubber hoses FTL

[2dot4]

if you have the option, go with OE sized rotors, and get em slotted - not drilled, not oem.

big brakes look hawt, but as far as braking performance, they hurt you badly unless you're pushing serious speeds - like 180mph+ If all you're doing is racing to 80 and stopping, big brakes aren't going to help at all. The added diameter and larger calipers add approx. 7lbs per wheel...decreasing acceleration significantly, and the added rotational mass requires more force to stop. Granted you'll have 4-piston calipers, but the two cancel each other out...so you'll stop like stock, and accelerate much slower.

If you want to improve braking, your best bet is OE sized, slotted rotors and some Axxis ultimate pads. Also, steel braided brake lines are a MUST for better braking. The rubber hoses are shit for high speed braking.

Unless you're that concerned with looks, I'd skip the big brake kit. For a car that doesn't make it past 130mph, big brakes are 100% for looks only.

[Krdshrk]

^^ Agreed. BBK's are just about useless on our cars. Everyone I know of who's serious about performance has gone with OEM replacement and good tires. You can't fit 15" wheels with drag radials/slicks over BBK's.

[kris5597]

hey guys what kinda springs should i get for my 18s i dont want them to rub nothing but i wana lower my car.

[rhythmnsmoke]

if you have the option, go with OE sized rotors, and get em slotted - not drilled, not oem.

big brakes look hawt, but as far as braking performance, they hurt you badly unless you're pushing serious speeds - like 180mph+ If all you're doing is racing to 80 and stopping, big brakes aren't going to help at all. The added diameter and larger calipers add approx. 7lbs per wheel...decreasing acceleration significantly, and the added rotational mass requires more force to stop. Granted you'll have 4-piston calipers, but the two cancel each other out...so you'll stop like stock, and accelerate much slower.

If you want to improve braking, your best bet is OE sized, slotted rotors and some Axxis ultimate pads. Also, steel braided brake lines are a MUST for better braking. The rubber hoses are shit for high speed braking.

Unless you're that concerned with looks, I'd skip the big brake kit. For a car that doesn't make it past 130mph, big brakes are 100% for looks only.



+ Motul Brake fluid change.

[gotDAMD]

haha, 2dot4 mentioned the 16g came from the evoIII ...

that what my turbo has stamped on it.

EVOIII :)

i'm just worried about acceleration, out here in los angeles, if you get caught street racing they take your car away and crush it at the junkyard in front of you.

so im only worried about boosting and accelrating quickly and then slowing down ..

hence my plans indicate a 16g turbo for quick pickup and wilwood 4 piston brakes front and back for quick braking.

:) yay :)

From what I read the only cars getting crushed were those with stolen parts. The ones that got caught street racing without stolen parts just got impounded.

[2widetC]

i actually heard that they are crushing them whether or not you have stolen parts, but thats just what i heard besides i live in sac and have never street raced in la!:aha:

[2widetC]

not to bring the turbo arguement up again but i had a 16g on my car befor i got my t3/t4 and didnt like it now i dont know what the difference is between the 2 but i had the 16g for 3 months and hated it finally taking it to a guy who knew what the hell he was doing (i installed the turbo myself) now im no idiot i have built many motors and supercharged alot of things but i never ventured into turbo charging so i thought i would try it and thankfully it ran, none the less 1000 dollars later and my car was awesome not exactly sure what he did but it was awesome. i had to remove the kit due to californias finest highway patrol!!:fu:

[2dot4]

why are they so anal in CA?

Everywhere else I've been, if you street race, the max penalty is your car gets impounded and you get a speeding ticket and "engaging in a speed contest" ticket. It's fucking gay that they can crush your car...

did they make you remove the turbo as a court order? or was that your decision to limit the amount of trouble you get in?

[2widetC]

well as you know when putting a turbo charger on a tC you have to remove the manifold cat which makes it a smog modification, so after you get what they call a "modified emissions" ticket they make you take the shit off and my wife made me so off it came, and there goes all of my fun, and another thing the fine would have been the same even if i wouldnt have taken my turbo off its bullshit i hate california highway patrol!!!! :fu: :cop:

[fightinsk8ers]

thats bullshit! they dont do that shit here in illinois

[2dot4]

yeah, that's kinda homo. Do they always do a visual inspection?

I had to deal with severe emissions regulations when I lived in Houston, TX back when they were the most polluted city...but now I live in St. Louis, MO, and if you don't have a muffler, they climb under the car to stick the sensor in whatever piece of exposed exhaust they can find lol.

They don't care much out here.

[2widetC]

always a visual inspection no matter what yea pretty shitty!!

[fightinsk8ers]

sorry bro that sucks...move lol

[2dot4]

yeah, I'd pack my shit.

my car is my life - I don't have time to deal with ignorant people. You pay for the car, you should be allowed to do what you want to it. If it passed emissions, it shouldn't matter what's done to the car, you know?

[rhythmnsmoke]

not to bring the turbo arguement up again but i had a 16g on my car befor i got my t3/t4 and didnt like it now i dont know what the difference is between the 2 but i had the 16g for 3 months and hated it finally taking it to a guy who knew what the hell he was doing (i installed the turbo myself) now im no idiot i have built many motors and supercharged alot of things but i never ventured into turbo charging so i thought i would try it and thankfully it ran, none the less 1000 dollars later and my car was awesome not exactly sure what he did but it was awesome. i had to remove the kit due to californias finest highway patrol!!:fu:


How do you not like boost? Or are you saying you hated it compared to the new turbo, cause I can't picture you hating your first ever turbo if you have nothing to compare it to.

[2widetC]

i hated the old turbo and loved the new one, i have had many turbo charged cars i just never have put a kit on a car before that was my first intall since them i have t/c 3 other cars i didnt like the 16g and i loved the t3/t4 and i dont know the difference in design or whatever.

[rhythmnsmoke]

Cool. I happen to love the 16G myself. Sooo many Kills I have had with it, so no reason for me not to like it.

[2dot4]

like you said, when you've only known one turbo, how can you hate it?

[rhythmnsmoke]

like you said, when you've only known one turbo, how can you hate it?


I've been in more than one turbo car myself.

[TunerTrifecta]

Different cars are....well different. That's like me saying that I've driven my an 87gn with a 67mm ball bearing and a tC with a 16g and only comparing the turbo's between the 2...sheesh, you're dense.

[rhythmnsmoke]

Different cars are....well different. That's like me saying that I've driven my an 87gn with a 67mm ball bearing and a tC with a 16g and only comparing the turbo's between the 2...sheesh, you're dense.


I've been in other turbo tC's too, :doh:

[2widetC]

please dont start the turbo arguement again, i dont know if i can take it...lol:wallb:

[2dot4]

I've been in other turbo tC's too, :doh:

x2

I can't imagine you've been in a tc with a dezod or turbo toyotas or t-netics kit and been disappointed. Granted you're running more boost, but the constant pull all the way to redline hasn't diappointed me yet. lol

No argument - I'm not in the mood either.

[rhythmnsmoke]

x2

I can't imagine you've been in a tc with a dezod or turbo toyotas or t-netics kit and been disappointed. Granted you're running more boost, but the constant pull all the way to redline hasn't diappointed me yet. lol

No argument - I'm not in the mood either.


Well imagine it then...cause I have:beer:Dezod T.E.A. that was on 8 PSI. I'm running more boost now obviously, but I was comparing it to when I was on 7 PSI. My crew has a Dezod, 3 ZPI's kits, and one fully modded Supercharger in our chapter. We are about to have another Dezod powered car in our chapter as soon as he gets back form the Navy. The Dezod kit that's in our crew had his car tuned at the same place I had did a basic dyno run at. On 7 PSI I put down 250whp/250wtq with 10's A/F ratio and open WG. He went to the same dyno shop to get his car tuned. Running 11's A/F ratio, 8 PSI he put down 240whp (don't remember tq #'s).

I rode in his car before it was tuned though, and it was really laggy. He agreed with me, as he rode in my tC before buying the kit, so he know what it felt like to have a fast spooling turbo. He said though that after he got it tuned, his spool was a better, but I have not rode in it since then.

Haven't been in a Turbo toyotas kitted car. And I've been at the track and seen Turbonetics ones, I wasn't to impressed with their performance numbers, but they are clean looking kits. The pipe that reroutes the wastegate back into the exhaust has a tendency to break when you try to race them, just an FYI for anyone wanting a Tnetics kit.

[rhythmnsmoke]

please dont start the turbo arguement again, i dont know if i can take it...lol:wallb:


You and me both...:rofl:

[fightinsk8ers]

Well imagine it then...cause I have:beer:Dezod T.E.A. that was on 8 PSI. I'm running more boost now obviously, but I was comparing it to when I was on 7 PSI. My crew has a Dezod, 3 ZPI's kits, and one fully modded Supercharger in our chapter. We are about to have another Dezod powered car in our chapter as soon as he gets back form the Navy. The Dezod kit that's in our crew had his car tuned at the same place I had did a basic dyno run at. On 7 PSI I put down 250whp/250wtq with 10's A/F ratio and open WG. He went to the same dyno shop to get his car tuned. Running 11's A/F ratio, 8 PSI he put down 240whp (don't remember tq #'s).

I rode in his car before it was tuned though, and it was really laggy. He agreed with me, as he rode in my tC before buying the kit, so he know what it felt like to have a fast spooling turbo. He said though that after he got it tuned, his spool was a better, but I have not rode in it since then.

Haven't been in a Turbo toyotas kitted car. And I've been at the track and seen Turbonetics ones, I wasn't to impressed with their performance numbers, but they are clean looking kits. The pipe that reroutes the wastegate back into the exhaust has a tendency to break when you try to race them, just an FYI for anyone wanting a Tnetics kit.

thanks for the info i think im gonna stick with dezod....

[rhythmnsmoke]

thanks for the info i think im gonna stick with dezod....


No problem. imo (and it's just that, my opinion), I would place the following in this order of purchase.

- Custom made turbo kit
- Dezod
- Turbonetics
- Turbo Toyotas


In that order, based on credibility, testing, R&D, and performance #'s.

[fightinsk8ers]

custom is cheaper...well sometimes it is lol and i think you would get a better sense of pride from your kit if it was custom....custom or dezods for me!!! probably custom so i can grab different pieces of it when i have money instead of dropping all that money at once.....

[TunerTrifecta]

If the dump tube for the wg is failing, there's a simple solution, cut it off at the re-circ point and turn it into a true divorced down pipe.

I hate to rain on the parade again, but peak horsepower numbers don't mean JACK. Look at all of the mustangs, and hell, SUPRAS for that matter putting down close to or over 1000whp and still running 10's. Power and torque CURVES are what matter. Where does the power/torque start, where's it peak, and where's the redline?

[fightinsk8ers]

what about the t3 t4 turbos and manifolds on ebay....I KNOW I KNOW DONT BUY FROM EBAY....but i would only but from a reputable dealer....and they look promising...what do you gusy think...anyone tried any of these yet?

[kris5597]

yea i was thinking about that. it would be cheaper off ebay to make a custom kit but turbo and manifold idk i would maybe just maybe try ebay and for the rest dump money into it. idk still wana get a greddy kit though.

[JoshCrane1]

what about the t3 t4 turbos and manifolds on ebay....I KNOW I KNOW DONT BUY FROM EBAY....but i would only but from a reputable dealer....and they look promising...what do you gusy think...anyone tried any of these yet?
im with you on that one, they dont look bad.

[2dot4]

The Dezod kit that's in our crew had his car tuned at the same place I had did a basic dyno run at. On 7 PSI I put down 250whp/250wtq with 10's A/F ratio and open WG. He went to the same dyno shop to get his car tuned. Running 11's A/F ratio, 8 PSI he put down 240whp (don't remember tq #'s).


So if I add an intercooler, increase boost, AND tune my car, I'll stay at the same hp? I dyno 240whp with no intercooler, no tune, and 7psi on a dezod-spec turbo. I guess it's easy to make a point when you make up numbers. lol Unless you come up with some alternate magical variable that would make my car faster by default...Even I put the Dezod kit above my own.

Until you prove all the numbers you post, just stop.

Oh, and Mr. Meaty is running 255whp on 5 psi on a turbo toyotas kit, therefore we can assume that Turbo Toyotas > ZPI. Guess what size turbo the TT kit uses? I'll give you a hint - it's not a 16g.

:crazy:

[fightinsk8ers]

im with you on that one, they dont look bad.


Josh im with you on this one!!!!!! Wanna be the guinea pigs and try it out?

[rhythmnsmoke]

So if I add an intercooler, increase boost, AND tune my car, I'll stay at the same hp? I dyno 240whp with no intercooler, no tune, and 7psi on a dezod-spec turbo. I guess it's easy to make a point when you make up numbers. lol Unless you come up with some alternate magical variable that would make my car faster by default...Even I put the Dezod kit above my own.

Until you prove all the numbers you post, just stop.

Oh, and Mr. Meaty is running 255whp on 5 psi on a turbo toyotas kit, therefore we can assume that Turbo Toyotas > ZPI. Guess what size turbo the TT kit uses? I'll give you a hint - it's not a 16g.

:crazy:


Depending on your application, Adding an Intercooler can cause a decrease in PSI. Therefore, you might find yourself bumping up 1 or 2 PSI to make the same HP.

Make up numbers? Yeah, cause I have every reason to lie to people...:dots: I have dyno sheets dude. And you can PM him. His name is Preston, and his scikotics name is sciontist1221.


What exactly is your deal really. It's just a dyno number, and I was giving my impression of his car. You need to take a chill pill. You get so Hung up on dyno numbers it's ridiculous.

[2dot4]

a 16g running less boost will never produce more power than a larger turbo on more boost, especially if the larger turbo was running an 11afr. It doesn't happen - not on the same car...unless you neglected to mention that the dezod kit was on an auto tc. In that case, i believe you.

I'm not trying to argue, but your throwing out all kinds of random, bs info to make yourself look good. Its ignorant. That's all.

[rhythmnsmoke]

a 16g running less boost will never produce more power than a larger turbo on more boost, especially if the larger turbo was running an 11afr. It doesn't happen - not on the same car...unless you neglected to mention that the dezod kit was on an auto tc. In that case, i believe you.

I'm not trying to argue, but your throwing out all kinds of random, bs info to make yourself look good. Its ignorant. That's all.


It's called a DYNO. 10whp difference can be made up in Simple Weather differences ALONE. It was a completely different day and time of the year he dynoed his car. It's freaking 10whp bro, not 40. Like I said, you get so hung up on dyno #'s. dyno #'s don't mean squat. It's a tuning instrument, nothing more, nothing less. Sure, some use it for bragging rights, but I'm not one of those people who flinches when someone tells me how much they put down on a electronic machine.

And no, his car is not Auto. We do not have any automatic tC's in our chapter running F/I. No one is trying to make anything look good. You are making something out of nothing. Was just passing along some facts bro, and an opinion on a turbo setup the just so HAPPEN to be bought from Dezod. If this was a custom setup, you probably wouldn't even think twice about raising the BS flag. I was not bashing anybody's choice, or personal opinion on what turbo they run. I was giving my opinion on his setup, to which he...himself agreed with me. His words were...."it comes on better up top". But his low end was rather laggy.

I find it funny that when I said I've rode in other turbo cars, someone brought up different car completely. When I mention that one of them was a tC too, I get the BS flag....lol.




PS...Have you PM'ed him yet?

[TunerTrifecta]

This guy just keeps on comin back don't he...sheesh.

OOOOOK. I'll start with the other turbo cars comment, since that was one of the last that I made. Did you DRIVE said car? Ok. You said you rode in it. Riding in a car, and DRIVING a car is totally different. I'm gonna leave that one at that, because there's no point in arguing this one further.

As far as adding an intercooler dropping manifold pressure, this is true, but you don't lose horsepower, you lose responsiveness. You WILL gain horsepower by adding an intercooler. You're cooling your air charge by usually around 60-70*, if not much more.

Shit if you want to talk huge hp numbers, there's a dude on here running a t-netics gtk 550 pushin 570ish whp. Guess what...aint no 16g lol.


BTW, Eric, my dad upgraded to a 72mm on his car :shocked:

[rhythmnsmoke]

^^Geesh, you guys are funny.

Did you happen to just skip over the part where I said the owner of the car agreed with me? I like how some of you just leave parts out, so it can help your case. Plain and simple, nothing you can say will change the results of two different dyno sessions, with two different cars, on two totally different days. Heck it was even during two different seasons.

And the only turbo car on here that I know of with a Tnetics GTK turbine is making 542whp (cause he is the head of our chapter here). Are you sure you are not speaking of him? If not, I would like to see the 570whp tC.

And who ever said anything about Huge Hp numbers on a 16G to begin with? Thanks for pointing out otherwise the Obvious. No one ever said anything about a bringing a built motor into the equation. And you research back through this discussion we have had a while ago, you would have not even mentioned reaching 500+whp, as I have said on a built motor, you would match it with a larger turbo.

You have brought up obvious stuff that no one ever even contested, so what was the reason behind that?

[rhythmnsmoke]

First you tried to front me with this comment.


Different cars are....well different. That's like me saying that I've driven my an 87gn with a 67mm ball bearing and a tC with a 16g and only comparing the turbo's between the 2...sheesh, you're dense.

Then when you found out I have been in a turbo tC with a bigger turbine than mine, you come back with this comment...


OOOOOK. I'll start with the other turbo cars comment, since that was one of the last that I made. Did you DRIVE said car? Ok. You said you rode in it. Riding in a car, and DRIVING a car is totally different. I'm gonna leave that one at that, because there's no point in arguing this one further.



Sounds like you will find any excuse to prove your case, even when I said the owner said the same thing about his own car....:rofl2::rofl2:

Have fun guys, this is :deadhorse:

2dot, like I said, you can feel free to PM him if you want to know his first impressions of his Dezod kit. I went to his house to help him with tidding up a few things with his intercooler, when he was installing it.

[TunerTrifecta]

Could be the same guy, that's why I said 570ish. I remembered it being around 550, but I thought it was higher. Doesn't really matter does it? I brought up this car because you seem to be a dyno whore. All that matters to you are peak numbers. Peak numbers don't mean JACK. Nadda. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Squat. Just because you peaked 10whp higher means nothing, let's see where his power starts and ends, and let's see yours.

Where am I failing to see your point in quoting 2 of my posts. I'm going to go back to what I already said...YOU DID NOT DRIVE SAID CAR.

To have some one TELL you, "hey it feels laggy" is far different from experiencing it yourself.

[kris5597]

what kind of ems does he have and is it tuned. could that make a dif on lag and other problems hes having like a small increase in hp and shit from a dezod kit. sounds to me like he should be getting a lot more whp than hes actually getting. not argueing with anyone just trying to end this and figure out the problem. we are a car club guys and i know people argue all the time about shit on here trust me ive been in ebough lol. but we kick others asses not each others lol. so can we all just be :coolp:. i see erics point though. im not understanding the loss in power from an intercooler. if u lost power why would people buy it?

[rhythmnsmoke]

Could be the same guy, that's why I said 570ish. I remembered it being around 550, but I thought it was higher. Doesn't really matter does it? I brought up this car because you seem to be a dyno whore. All that matters to you are peak numbers. Peak numbers don't mean JACK. Nadda. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Squat. Just because you peaked 10whp higher means nothing, let's see where his power starts and ends, and let's see yours.

Where am I failing to see your point in quoting 2 of my posts. I'm going to go back to what I already said...YOU DID NOT DRIVE SAID CAR.



Yeah, you are talking about Brian (Head of our chapter). The guys at the former ZPI finished up his project to the tune of 542whp. I'm a dyno whore? LOL....wow, the exact opposite of what I've always said, dyno's don't mean nothing. All I said was that his car was laggy. You said I didn't drive it. It doesn't matter whether I drove it or not, the owner of the car said it was laggy. So, I'm missing why you keep bringing up that I didn't drive it.



To have some one TELL you, "hey it feels laggy" is far different from experiencing it yourself.


So, let me get this straight, I can't POSSIBLY imagine what it's like despite the fact that I was in the car with him, we were testing it out, and we both agreed on it being a bit laggy down low....:rofl::rofl: So, basically, you are saying I can only give an opinion on it if I actually drove the car, and that the owner driving it while I'm riding shotgun and we both coming to the same conclusion means Nothing, and he dosen't know what he's talking about even though it's his car....:rofl::rofl:

Ok, man, I'm not even going to argue that anymore. That is about the most obsurd thing I've heard.

[rhythmnsmoke]

what kind of ems does he have and is it tuned. could that make a dif on lag and other problems hes having like a small increase in hp and shit from a dezod kit. sounds to me like he should be getting a lot more whp than hes actually getting. not argueing with anyone just trying to end this and figure out the problem. we are a car club guys and i know people argue all the time about shit on here trust me ive been in ebough lol. but we kick others asses not each others lol. so can we all just be :coolp:. i see erics point though. im not understanding the loss in power from an intercooler. if u lost power why would people buy it?


That's why you can't pay attention to dyno numbers. They are just that, numbers. One guy making 240whp @ 8 PSI in a totally different part of the country, vs another guy claiming 308whp @ 8 PSI, then another guy posting 300whp @ 11 PSI. The one thing those 3 numbers have in common, is that they are all Dezod kits. But on totally different dyno's and different states.

He is running an Emanage like most people.

On the intercooler question, you buy it because it creates the ability for you to increase the power.

Oh yeah, I remember him also mentioning that before his car was tuned, they did a baseline of his car, and it was around 200whp. Then after the tune, he was bumped up to 240ish whp.

[2dot4]

Ideally - same car, same boost, same setup, 16g vs dezod turbo, the 16g is less efficient, and will produce less power when compared to the same setup with a larger turbo. Always.

It's absolutely fucking stupid to use real world examples, because like you said - 10hp is a matter of 20 degrees outside. I agree with you. There's too many variables, so your real world examples and mine don't mean dick. The basic teachings of f/i show that there is an turbo efficiency range for each motor. While the 16g works great for low-end, and at 10psi may provide a little top end, it's not ideal for the 2az. Case in point - ZPI is the only company that used a 16g...with the exception of a few mom-and-pop shops that use them for cost efficiency. Of all the companies that build boost for the tC, all of them know better. You're running 10psi - you're pushing 300whp...in your instance, power is power. 0-300whp in 4500rpms is great, and it works, but if all you needed was 4500rpms, there would be a lot less racecars pushing 10000rpms shift points.

You're going by "my car is fast and I have plenty of kills" - you're running 10psi, intercooled, with a tune - you better have some fucking kills. 300whp in a 2900lb car is virtually unstoppable. We're arguing turbo efficiency though - regardless of how fast your car is, and feels, you have all your power at 0-4500rpms. At 7psi, I could probably keep up with you on a 60 roll, because all my power starts at 2500rpms and sails through 5700rpms. So while your car is fast, your powerband has it's faults. My peak power is at 5700rpms...where is yours?

End of story, the 16g works, and on 10psi with 300whp who gives a shit about the powerband. But you say it's the perfect turbo for the tC, and I GUARANTEE it's not - it produces power, but any turbo produces power. That's where the argument started, and that's where it ends. I don't think your car is slow, I don't think you're stupid, and I don't think you lie about what you've seen. You just use too many examples with too many variables, and I use real world knowledge and fundamental understanding of f/i.

All turbos add power, and almost any turbo will put a tC into the 11s with enough tuning and bolt ons - but as far as what turbo is most efficient on the tC, ask Dezod, or Turbonetics, or Turbo Toyotas, or Scion Speed. In my own personal opinion, the established companies with $millions in R&D probably know a little more than them good ole Kentucky Boys.

</argument>
</absurdity>
</exhaustion>

[rhythmnsmoke]

Ideally - same car, same boost, same setup, 16g vs dezod turbo, the 16g is less efficient, and will produce less power when compared to the same setup with a larger turbo. Always.

It's absolutely fucking stupid to use real world examples, because like you said - 10hp is a matter of 20 degrees outside. I agree with you. There's too many variables, so your real world examples and mine don't mean dick. The basic teachings of f/i show that there is an turbo efficiency range for each motor. While the 16g works great for low-end, and at 10psi may provide a little top end, it's not ideal for the 2az. Case in point - ZPI is the only company that used a 16g...with the exception of a few mom-and-pop shops that use them for cost efficiency. Of all the companies that build boost for the tC, all of them know better. You're running 10psi - you're pushing 300whp...in your instance, power is power. 0-300whp in 4500rpms is great, and it works, but if all you needed was 4500rpms, there would be a lot less racecars pushing 10000rpms shift points.

You're going by "my car is fast and I have plenty of kills" - you're running 10psi, intercooled, with a tune - you better have some fucking kills. 300whp in a 2900lb car is virtually unstoppable. We're arguing turbo efficiency though - regardless of how fast your car is, and feels, you have all your power at 0-4500rpms. At 7psi, I could probably keep up with you on a 60 roll, because all my power starts at 2500rpms and sails through 5700rpms. So while your car is fast, your powerband has it's faults. My peak power is at 5700rpms...where is yours?

End of story, the 16g works, and on 10psi with 300whp who gives a shit about the powerband. But you say it's the perfect turbo for the tC, and I GUARANTEE it's not - it produces power, but any turbo produces power. That's where the argument started, and that's where it ends. I don't think your car is slow, I don't think you're stupid, and I don't think you lie about what you've seen. You just use too many examples with too many variables, and I use real world knowledge and fundamental understanding of f/i.

All turbos add power, and almost any turbo will put a tC into the 11s with enough tuning and bolt ons - but as far as what turbo is most efficient on the tC, ask Dezod, or Turbonetics, or Turbo Toyotas, or Scion Speed. In my own personal opinion, the established companies with $millions in R&D probably know a little more than them good ole Kentucky Boys.

</argument>
</absurdity>
</exhaustion>



Not to be picky, but just to correct you.....all of my "kills" were on 7-8 PSI of boost with 10's A/F ratio. I have never had this car tuned into the 11's A/F ratio, nor have I ever had it tuned using a dyno. Just thought I would throw that in there, to let you know that I didn't have some UBER setup that contribute to my races. NOW though, today, I'm on 11.5 - 12 PSI. Spikes to 13 but settles at 11.5 - 12 PSI.

If hypothetically I have all my power from 0 - 4500rpm, having power from 3000 - 6200rpm isn't any better. They cancel each other out by the time the two cars cross the line. I've explained this to you before, by using Brett's car (scionlifer) as an example, as he use to run a 16G, and now has a larger Turbo Toyotas turbo kit. His 1/4 mile time did not change. His change is probably more pronounced on the highway than at the drag strip.

I believe in real world cases, and you tend to focus more on what looks good on paper. I'm not that kind of guy. So, we are always going to but heads on this. I have Always said from day one when we got into this discussion, that for a stock motor....I prefer the 16G over any turbo any other distributor is selling. On a Stock motor, it's displacement is large enough alone to place you well within the efficiency range of the 16G. BUT.....BUT, with a Built motor, you will be past the 16G's efficiency range, and require a larger turbine, which I intend to do. I have always stated that. That's my preference, I go by what works, and what numbers are seen out of it in the real world.


PS....I'm ashamed though that you would even put ScionSpeed into the line up of companies that have done something for the Scion community. :blink1:

[rhythmnsmoke]

Just food for thought....

In terms of racing....

ScionSpeed
-big turbo
-17 - 18 PSI
-Phantom Grip LSD
- 12.1 1/4 mile time

ZPI
-16G turbine
-14 PSI
-weight reduction
-12.1 1/4 mile time

Dezod
-big turbo
-10-11 PSI
-Drag radials
-13.7 1/4 mile time (said to have made 13.3 but was never verified)

Turbo Toyotas
-big turbo
-No track times recorded


Turbonetics
-big turbo
-No track times recorded



PS....When I say "big turbo", I want to clarify that I'm talking about a turbine larger than a 16G.

And when I say "No times recorded", I want to clarify that I'm talking about from the actual vendor/seller of the turbo kit. Turbo Toyotas does not have track times from Company nor Customer yet.

[TunerTrifecta]

No--you're right--your input, having not driven the car, means dick. Driving styles vary.

Power from 3000-6200 and power from 0-4500 do not cancel each other out. When was the last time you were racing from 0rpms? You, in reality, have around 3800 rpm's of power band, but it's in the lower end, where the tc doesn't really need much help. In all honesty, aside from first gear, you never use most of your power band if you're shifting high. If you shift at 5500 even you're only dropping to around 4500 in the next gear, at the top of your power band. Whereas Eric (for example) is near the middle of his.

The smaller turbine on a fairly quick revving, large displacement 4cyl is POINTLESS.

[2widetC]

you can actually lose power from putting on an intercooler depending on the size of the intercooler! if you have a giant intercooler for a small turbo you lose psi because you experiance boost drop. this is when you add an intercooler on a car that didnt come with one, on custom setups this happens all the time some body will buy a small turbo and put a huge core on it and only see 3 psi out of it when its rated at 5. alot of guys in eclipses have this problem i think the turbo on that car is a td04 i can be mistaken but they put a giant front mount on it and lose hp it happens, so the most common fix is a manuel boost controller which ups the boost but not the fuel, and anyboy who knows anything about turbo cars knows that your waisting your time. i personally think that people whould be intitled to there opinions and thaat we shouldnt argue about eachothers cars iam jealuos of the fact you guys even have turbos lets argue about that LOL... but on a real note a tC with a turbo is bad ass regaurdless i dont care if its a detroit deseil turbo its still tight....so to make long stories short lets all just chill

[rhythmnsmoke]

No--you're right--your input, having not driven the car, means dick. Driving styles vary.

Power from 3000-6200 and power from 0-4500 do not cancel each other out. When was the last time you were racing from 0rpms? You, in reality, have around 3800 rpm's of power band, but it's in the lower end, where the tc doesn't really need much help. In all honesty, aside from first gear, you never use most of your power band if you're shifting high. If you shift at 5500 even you're only dropping to around 4500 in the next gear, at the top of your power band. Whereas Eric (for example) is near the middle of his.

The smaller turbine on a fairly quick revving, large displacement 4cyl is POINTLESS.


No one "Literally" meant racing from 0rpms. It was a hypothetical...extreme persay to show differences. I don't shift at 5500. I power shift for one. And yes it does cancel each other out. I proved that already using a real world example that happened on Scionlife. Guy took a 16G to the track on a built motor. Ran 12.6 in the 1/4 mile. Bought a bigger turbo with tubular manifold (Turbo Toyotas kit), made 28 more whp than he did on the 16G (which is not enough to change is 1/4 mile time), went back to the track, and ran a 12.7.

The 16G brought boost on early, and fail off earlier in the high RPM, and his new turbo, brought boost on later, and climd higher than the 16G on the top end, but his 1/4 mile time fairly stayed the same. I.E....canceling the performance benefits out. Until he turns the boost up even more to make around 50-100 whp more with the new turbo (if it can achieve 500whp that is), he won't be any faster.

[2dot4]

I just want it be noted that I'm actually not in this anymore lol

my hands are clean, biatches! lol

from a customer standpoint, I don't know about track times, but mr. meaty on here dynos 252whp on 5psi with the Turbo Toyotas Kit, which as far as power:boost goes, it's the highest I've seen from any F/I manufacturer for the tc. Granted it's peak power, but it's still a good indication of the quality of the kit IMO.

[rhythmnsmoke]

It's a good kit. TT had to go through a few revisions at the expense of his customers, but I think they got the measurements right now.

[Binder86]

Eric all i can say is be patient with the tune. Just get it done right, I understand that money is an issue, but you do it right you only have to deal with the bullsh*t once you do it wrong the same shit keeps popping up. I went through the same thing you are and still am. I haven't driven my car once in the last 9 weeks due to the fact that my ecu is being a bitch to tune. It'll all work out.

[2dot4]

yeah - I'm being pretty patient. I'm not taking it anywhere that wants $600, because if it takes that long to base tune a piggyback, I don't trust they know anything about it. I found a place that quoted me $100/hour for a street tune - I heard street tunes are more accurate anyway...because they're tuned to afr's, not hp numbers.

I've had the e-manage since August 11 - installed it sometime in october, and it's still running a blank tune - the car runs fine - just not hitting peak potential power-wise. I installed the turbo back in May of 07 - it's made it this far. Just want it done right.

[Binder86]

True a base tune on a piggyback is not worth that much. However I would advise against the street tune. I'm not bashing it or anything since there are a lot of tuners out there that are sucessful with it, but I would try to reach it's potential in a safe way to prevent blow ups. A dyno tune is far more specific to the owners wants and most places charge $75 for three pulls. Most piggybacks take atleast that many maybe a few more, which will be less than your $200 you are willing to spend. There may be some labor charge which may make to $200 even.

[2dot4]

It's $75/pull just for the pull - most dyno tuners charge $100/hour - it just depends on how long they say it will take - the two places I went said 4-6 hours, which is bullshit.

Street tuning isn't anymore dangerous than dyno tuning, and I've heard good things about the effectiveness of street tuning - they cost the same, but the one reputable place I found claims 2 hours, so that's right in my budget.

Where in Houston did you get yours tuned? do you recommend them?

[Binder86]

Eric: I agree with you 100% it's bullshit I really don't know what else to say though either save up or find hookups. Tuning isn't cheap and it's essential for any turbo and built motor setups.

To all the above posts: It all depends on the situations your using it for. Big turbos have high end power and slow spool, which is optimal for drag since the whole race is in the top end. Time attack and circuit you want to use a smaller turbo for the quick spool and hard hold when accelerating through turns. I have a small turbo setup with a top end peak of 7300 rpms.Now I'm not saying I use the entire powerband during daily driving but for racing it comes in handy to have a turbo already spooling only halfway through the powerband and then when I punch it the turbo being able to hold peak boost till I reach fuel cut. It's all about purpose not horsepower.

[TunerTrifecta]

^well said^

[2dot4]

the funny thing is that I've been quoted $200 for a tune by numerous places, and when I make the appointment, they change their mind. I'm hoping the high tuned performance place will stick to their original quote - if not, I'm fucked and gotta figure out how to tune this thing myself.

[Binder86]

If you are able to hook a comm cable up between the ecu and a laptop and run the e-manage program on the computerr you can probably do a street tune that follow the parameters you want until you are able to get it on a dyno.

[2dot4]

I have all the stuff to street tune, I just have no clue how to street tune. Any insight?

[Binder86]

Basically you or someone else drive and hook up the laptop to the ecu. Then load the Greddy e-manage software up on to the laptop screen. look for fuel systems, type in the size, impedence, and start time of the injectors. This information should all be on the flow chart that came with the injectors. If not call up the company and ask them the specific specs and start time of the injectors. Then you need to syncronize the crankshaft and camshaft in order to have a perfect idle and more importantly to prevent pre-ignition. It sounds harder than it really is. Like I said I don't have first hand experience with the Greddy system But I have the AEM EMS and it may be similar start out map display on the computer.

[2dot4]

the e-manage software displays the injector duration and duty cycle, and for upgraded injectors, you just enter the original size, and the new size, and it apparently adjust the duration on it's own.

I can go in manually and adjust airflow, and add fuel - I just can't control my ignition timing, or trim fuel (I don't have the ignition harness, and the e-manage blue doesn't support fuel trimming...I need the Ultimate for that)

So while I'm somewhat limited in my tuning abilities, it's still enough for a general base tune I would think. I just don't wanna fuck something up, and I know it's easy to do.

[Binder86]

That seems simple enough seeing how it calculates on it's own, with mine everything is manually tuned on a dyno and computer, inorder to get everything running right. And it is much harder than it looks when you don't know what numbers go where so I'm leaving it up to a professional.

[rhythmnsmoke]

It's $75/pull just for the pull - most dyno tuners charge $100/hour - it just depends on how long they say it will take - the two places I went said 4-6 hours, which is bullshit.

Street tuning isn't anymore dangerous than dyno tuning, and I've heard good things about the effectiveness of street tuning - they cost the same, but the one reputable place I found claims 2 hours, so that's right in my budget.

Where in Houston did you get yours tuned? do you recommend them?


Our tC has only ever been street tuned. Been boosted for nearly a year and half, and has never seen a tune on a dyno. Street tuning has its benefits. I have known dyno tuners to tune a car on the dyno and then confirm it by checking the tune on the street.

[kris5597]

hey is it possible to have headers and intake exhaust ya know pretty much every performance mode but f/i, and run a ems and get it tuned? do u think without a turbo it would improve anything? i was thinking about running nitrous and run a ems and get it tuned to my car (hopeing i could) for more power would it be possible?

[Binder86]

I think its possible, but also nos is a waste of money unless you got to the track all the time, cuz all it is is f/i in spray form and each time you run out you have to pay for more. Plus the ems and tune isn't cheap. I think you will be happier in the end with the turbo system.

[rhythmnsmoke]

hey is it possible to have headers and intake exhaust ya know pretty much every performance mode but f/i, and run a ems and get it tuned? do u think without a turbo it would improve anything? i was thinking about running nitrous and run a ems and get it tuned to my car (hopeing i could) for more power would it be possible?


I think its possible, but also nos is a waste of money unless you got to the track all the time, cuz all it is is f/i in spray form and each time you run out you have to pay for more. Plus the ems and tune isn't cheap. I think you will be happier in the end with the turbo system.


I wouldn't say it was a waste of money, but yes you can have all the bolt-ons + Nitrous. You can be AS fast as a turbo kit if you are spraying like a 75-100 shot And have an EMS (like GReddy Emanage) to tune in. But as mentioned though, you will have to pay to fill the bottle every time you run out. Around here, I think it's like $45+ to fill a tank (don't know if thats a 5 or a 10 tank though).

[Binder86]

I just don't think its very practical on a street car. For instance lets say you get pulled over and there's a 10 lb nirous bottle in the back seat don't you think the cop is going to suspect that the car isn't street legal and check it out to make sure it's smog legal and what not. Sure the chances are rare, but you do have a higher chance of blowing up your engine with nitrous due to the chemical reaction and the increased compression in such a short amount of time.

[rhythmnsmoke]

I just don't think its very practical on a street car. For instance lets say you get pulled over and there's a 10 lb nirous bottle in the back seat don't you think the cop is going to suspect that the car isn't street legal and check it out to make sure it's smog legal and what not. Sure the chances are rare, but you do have a higher chance of blowing up your engine with nitrous due to the chemical reaction and the increased compression in such a short amount of time.


Not everyone lives in California. :up: It's a matter of preference really. I don't run Nitrous and more than likely never will, but I can't hate on the dudes that do.

[Binder86]

I feel ya. I'm just trying to guide kris5597 with his decision. I'm not going to hate on him with which ever choice he goes cuz either one is bad ass I just don't have the money to keep on filling the bottles cuz to be honest I will get button happy. There are many cars that are succesful off of either one and like you said earlier rhythym even both.

[kris5597]

yea i understand. nitrous is def iffy though just a thought. but i just thought about all bolt ons and a piggyback ems and get it tuned for a lil more juice shit even fuel economy if possible. at least till my warranty is up so all i will have to do is get turbo kit and retuned. but if ima get a ems it will be a pretty decent one. and if i did mount nitrous def would not be in back seat. id mount it where the spare tire is. very hidden. id keep everything hidden. lines tank and even switch. kinda like that element of surprise ya know. wouldnt be a bad idea. and if i wana show it off just pull out the trunk panel. idk like i said an idea. but def considering bolt ons with ems tuned. get a lil more juice to satify me for a lil longer till i can get and key word (afford) turbo lol.

[Binder86]

Screw the warranty and hold onto the ems until the turbo comes. Make a little stock pile of items that you want to put in and then put them in and install them all at once. It'll be cheaper then buying parts and then tuning it every time a new part comes in.

[2dot4]

I'd skip nitrous too.

it's fun for a while, but the upkeep is costly...$45 for a 10lb bottle.
as far as damage, most of it happens to the transmission - handling instant, high-rpm torque destroys stock transmissions.

If you have the bolt-ons installed, and have the e-manage, it won't hurt to install the e-manage and tune the car - it'll give you probably 5% more power...depending on the mods.

if you haven't bought anything but the ems, just keep the ems and save your money for boost - I guarantee you won't be unhappy with the decision. :grin:

[Binder86]

Plus nitrous leaves a permanent residue on the top of the pistons. So if your transmission goes out and its under warranty and they find nitrous residue in the oil they will void the warranty. Same thing for emmisions.

[TunerTrifecta]

boost is instant smilization. (smile+ization) lol.

[2dot4]

boost ftw - definitely. I can't imagine a life without boost.

[kris5597]

lol thanks guys. well for performance the only things i got left is torque damper and headers and i was gonna run that and everything else i got with the e manage until my warranty goes out. i have to keep my warranty paranoid i guess. never owned an import car. before this was muscle and all it did was break so im still trying to get used to reliability. thats why i bought the 100,000 mile warranty, PARANOID! now that i realize it i should not have. but i will def boost as soon as i can afford it. not sure what to go with though. custom kit or bought kit. dont have the money for either anyway. but i may need some help on parts and shit. if anyone is willing to pull shit out and explain what it is and why its good i would be eternally grateful!!! lol:bow:

[Binder86]

Your welcome for the help and we'll be here to help you in the quest for your F/I needs. And yea I stayed away from the warranty just extra money for work that I do myself since I'm a tech for Audi.

[kris5597]

see your a tech you got it made with your car lol. but yea im open for all suggestions on turbos and custom kits and what nots if anyone wants to start that list and conversation. i would love for someone to explain the main ideas of a turbo and what to look for. would help me out big time.

[TunerTrifecta]

main ideas for a turbo? Cram more air in. make more power. make car go vrrrrom-chirp-pssssssh.

/end conversation. Lol sorry for beign a smart ass, I'm just really tired. If I have a minute tomorrow I'll post something up that isn't just plain-ole assenine.

[Binder86]

Turbos are exhaust driven. There is vacuum and boost. In vacuum the turbine is not spinning, when in boost it is and compresses it then throws it into the combustion chamber increasing the compression ratio. It make the psssh sound to release unwanted pressure through the blow off valve located on the cold pipe going to the throttle body from the intercooler. The exhaust not being recirculated by the egr valve is realeased through the down pipe and out of your exhaust. Plain and simpe and process repeats. The higher the boost the higher the compression ratio is going to be therefore a lot of tuners out there go to lower compression forged pistons that can take the high heat and beating.

[Nebster]

Turbos are exhaust driven. There is vacuum and boost. In vacuum the turbine is not spinning, when in boost it is and compresses it then throws it into the combustion chamber increasing the compression ratio. It make the psssh sound to release unwanted pressure through the blow off valve located on the cold pipe going to the throttle body from the intercooler. The exhaust not being recirculated by the egr valve is realeased through the down pipe and out of your exhaust. Plain and simpe and process repeats. The higher the boost the higher the compression ratio is going to be therefore a lot of tuners out there go to lower compression forged pistons that can take the high heat and beating.

not quite, the turbo always spins when its in vaccumm the turbo doesn't spin fast enough to compress the air that comes in from the filter. During boost the turbine is spinning fast enough to compress the air going in and thats rated above the atmospheric pressure and then read out on your gauge giving it in either bar (metric) or psi (pounds per square inch, english) A turbo is two sides, an exhaust side and a compressor side. It has one shaft that goes through and connects two sets of blades. The exhaust side rotates the blades on the exhaust side and then moves the compressor side fans to compress the air.

That is another myth. The actual boost does not raise your compression ratio. The compression ratio is just the amount the piston moves up and down from tdc to bdc this is a set number. It creates higher stresses inside the engine because you're putting more air and fuel into a smaller space so thats why people run lower compression pistons, so they can put more air and fuel in and they run hot forged Q&T pistons to be able to handle the heat.

[2dot4]

yeah - compression increases, but the ratio stays the same unless you swap pistons.

[Nebster]

the compression doesn't change, the forces on the piston change but the compression does not. compression / compression ratio is only dependent on the pistons and area not how much area

http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/3/a/f/3afd933b679b7b20f1561c841867f901.png

b = cylinder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cylinder_%28engine%29) bore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bore_%28engines%29) (diameter)s = piston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piston) stroke lengthVc = volume of the combustion chamber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion_chamber) (including head gasket (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_gasket)). This is the minimum volume of the space into which the fuel and air is compressed, prior to ignition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_system). Because of the complex shape of this space, it usually is measured directly rather than calculated.

[TunerTrifecta]

^^^excellent post, Neb!!!

Guess while I'm here I'll jump in and agree with whats already been said: boost does not raise compression/compression ratio, it raises the amount of force being pushed into the combustion chamber. It's like...imagine having a balloon that's ALMOST full of air, to the point of popping. Now, if you blow very slowly, it'll stretch s'more. If you blow very quickly (lots of boost), it'll pop...and so will a rod pop through an oil pan, or the side of your block haha.

[2dot4]

the ratio will stay at 9:1, because the volume of the cylinder hasn't changed - BDC will always be 9x the capacity of TDC.

but the pressure inside the chamber will increase significantly with F/I...the compression can stay the same, but the pressure increase is what causes damage and knocking. So it depends on if you're using "compression" and "pressure" interchangeably. I don't see compression and compression ratio as the same thing, so I assume compression refers to pressure - when you do a compression test, you get a readout of approx. 150psi. on F/I, that pressure increases, because more air is being compressed into the same volume.

So compression increases, but compression ratio does not.

[kris5597]

nice. ha and they say i needed to go to school to learn shit like this lol.

[Binder86]

Yea my bad. I didn't mean to put "ratio" in there. Just a typing fart.

[TunerTrifecta]

ROFL

"Scikotics--your learning headquarters" rofl

[2dot4]

Update from OP: I talked to High Tuned Performance and they said they can give me a base street tune for $150-$200. I verified the price to make sure and he said "yep, $200 - bring it by when you're ready." And I verified the price again before I hung up and explained the problem I had with other shops and he laughed and said "bring $200 CASH if you're worried - you'll get tuned."

So I decided that since I'm finally getting tuned, I'm going to have everything I need, so I ordered the ignition harness for my e-manage. I was going to have the car tuned this weekend, but with valentines day on thursday, and the hurt of an already short paycheck, I decided I'd order the harness and wait til my next paycheck (which will have lots of overtime on it!) and use that money for the tune. So, assuming everything stays on track, I'll be tuned by March and very, VERY happy!

I'm also looking to get dyno'd the same weekend, right before the tune - I want to know where I am hp-wise right before, then re-dyno it after the tune and see what kind of power I gained...if any (the idea is to dyno it right before and right after so temps and atmospheric pressure are similar, leaving less variables). I'll keep you all posted!

[kris5597]

what would be the point of having a s/c and a t/c?

[Krdshrk]

SC kicks in right away. Turbo takes time to spool. Twin Charging a car would have the SC kick in and give the engine boost until the turbo spools up. However, in the tC, the centrifugal s/c only really makes power at peak boost, which is at high rpm. That makes twin charging useless. Plus the tC turbos generally spool pretty fast (2500 RPM for me) so it's not necessary.

[TunerTrifecta]

dual forced setups give you the best of both worlds.

S/C--instantaneous boost from idle RPM up through the power band. Downfall to this is usually less boost towards the higher end of the RPM spectrum, and they, for the most part, won't take the same amount of abuse (PSI-wise) as a turbo.

Tubo--HUGE power potential, but you sacrifice the low end. Turbo lag is the worst enemy of anyone doing races from a dig.

In short, by using a s/c AND a turbo, you get the instant boost from the s/c, with the high end OOMPH from a turbo.

EDIT:God dammit Nick!!! lol you beat me to it by 2 minutes while I was typing!! lol

[kris5597]

o i just saw a pic of it. turbo hooked up and sucking in air going through a intercooler and then into the s/c to the motor. looks cool but like u said pointless.

[TunerTrifecta]

depends on what kind of car it's on and how much horsepower they're shooting for.

If it's a 1000+ whp application, you can bet that the turbo isn't spooling till around 5k rpm, which means he/she needs the low rpm oomph out of a s/c.

[kris5597]

o. why is turbo lag such a big deal. when u are racing u are reving the engine anyway shouldnt the turbo already be spnning?

[Krdshrk]

It depends on the car. With cars with large turbos, they spool later, so that's why the twin charging is good. Even when launching, you can't always launch under boost.

[kris5597]

see i dont have a turbo so i dont know much about them, how they opperate and that good stuff. i want one and im sure once i get one i will see how it is. does turbo cause porblems? or any extra maintenance? or anything of that sort. cause if i get it ima get the aem fi/c and an electronic boost controller so i can drive my car at a bout 6 or 7 psi and if i wana race it i can juice it up a lil and HAUL ASS. all im looking for is 250whp. i will be happy. thinking aboutr going with the turbo toyotas kit with 7 psi? how does that sound?

[TunerTrifecta]

It's spinning, but it's not spinning fast enough to create much, if any, boost.

Don't take this the wrong way because I don't know your knowledge level on turbos:

a turbocharger consists of 2 parts: impeller, propeller. The propeller is inside of the side of the turbo that connects to the exhaust/turbo manifold. The impeller is inside the side where the air intake tube comes into. The 2 'pellers are connected by a shaft between them. The exhaust gas spins the propeller which turns the shaft, which then turns the impeller. When the exhaust gas gets to flowing fast enough, the impeller is "compacting" the air going into the motor. Anything up to that point, is merely a spinning 'peller in the way. As the propeller gets moving faster and faster, so does the impeller, meaning that it's compacting the air more and more, creating more psi--Pounds per Square Inch.

Now that we have the basic physics part of it out of the way, onto the actual question. Turbo lag is what happens before the 'pellers are spinning fast enough to be compressing the air. When you use a turbo with a large housing, more air has to be moved inside of the housing to create boost, thus creating turbo lag--the period of time between when the rpm's start to rise (launch) and when the turbo starts to create boost.

Turbo lag means you're missing power from idle RPM to xxxxRPM, meaning anyone with a faster spooling turbo just launched your ass, so you better have the high end boost to bring it!!

Hopefully that answered teh question, I kinda went off on a tangent.


EDIT: DAMN YOU AGAIN NICK!!!

You say you'll be happy with 250whp now, you'll change your mind after about 3 months of 250whp and say "I only really want 350whp"...boost is the most addicting drug on the market...no matter how much you get, you always want more!!!

[kris5597]

yes it did thank you.

[TunerTrifecta]

www.howstuffworks.com (http://www.howstuffworks.com)

That website is an AWESOME resource for damn near anything you want to know how it works. Type "turbocharger" into the search box and enjoy about 2-3 hours worth of reading! =)

[kris5597]

yea just read the first of it and its awesome thanks really appreciate it.

[TunerTrifecta]

not a problem broseph. That website is how I first started learning about turbos back in sophomore year of highschool. We had to write a report on a 20th century invention that has changed our lives lol

[2dot4]

yeah - I friggin lost to a mustang the other day (nicely modded, don't get me wrong) - so I'm not happy with 240whp anymore...I want more....I can't say I'd want more than 325 - I really don't want to invest the money and maintenance of internal mods and I really don't want to lose the driveability of the car as a DD.

[TunerTrifecta]

lol when I had the supra I was aiming for 450.

I just wanna see the 240 hit 300whp @ around 11-15 psi utilizing a smallish turbo. Turbo lag=enemy of drifting. I thought about finding a way to s/c the damn thing, but high RPM's and s/c don't tend to get along very well.

I'm thinking like a turbonetics GTK350 or maybe even just a T28 off of an S15.

[Binder86]

I have a t25 right now. I didn't know how big a turbo the tc could support and money was a big factor. I'm looking into rebuilding the kit around a garrett gt3576. and run 15-25 psi on a built motor. I already have a backup car which may turn dd once I reach past 400whp.

[kris5597]

shit all i want is to run turbo with stock engine and have a dd that i can race. something i can play with and kick ass with at the same time. something small and spools quick as well. what would a good kit be for something like what im looking for?

[TunerTrifecta]

something with a 16g lol.

[Binder86]

16g is a good turbo. It's bigger than mine and applicable to almost everything. It's pretty much the same turbo in the sti.

[kris5597]

ok so 16g. any kit come with the 16g?

[Krdshrk]

not anymore they don't. The GReddy kit with the 18g is just fine for DD/Track. It's what I have and use and love.

[kris5597]

ok cool. thanks. ill just looks around and see what i run into.

[fightinsk8ers]

im gonna purchase mine from dezod

[Binder86]

im gonna purchase mine from dezod

They do great work I'm good friends with Joe (Dezod West) and Paul (Dezod Hdq)

[fightinsk8ers]

yeah im gonna talk to one of them and find out what the best setup for me would be

[Krdshrk]

Innovative T3/T4 50 Trim, .48 A/R Non BB Turbo is good.

[TunerTrifecta]

why a non-bb? The spool on a BB is DSOOOO much quicker!

[2dot4]

it's a .43 a/r - a BB would be useless.

[kris5597]

ok. on a turbo what does the .48 a/r stand for? and what does the t3 or t4 stand for?

[2dot4]

t3 and t4 are flange types for turbos. Kinda like bolts and nuts - they have standardized units so you know what goes with what. generally a flange type may also indicate a general design of a turbo as well - like t28 turbos are designed differently than t3 turbos. It's pretty hard to explain, but the actual explaination is that the t3/t4 denotes the flange used to mount the turbo to the manifold. a 16g is a t3/t4 turbo...the "16g" part is just the design description.

the a/r is your area ratio - it's the ratio of the diameter of the turbo outlet compared to the radius of the turbo housing. Larger a/r's generally describe larger turbos - larger turbos produce more cfm at a given boost level, but take longer to spool...that's another topic lol.

.48 is pretty small. .63 is decent. .7 is pretty big. .82 is huge. and 1.01 and up is RIDICULOUS! lol

[kris5597]

ok so a 16g would be a t3/t4 flange hook up with a .63 a/r? about a medium turbo?

[Krdshrk]

TD05H-16G is a relatively small turbo (.49 A/R)
TD05H-18G I believe is .57 A/R (Bigger turbine).

[kris5597]

o ok. just trying to get my shit familiar with this. so a 16g is a good turbo for the tc. the greddy comes with a 18g. bigger. how much boost do u push with your greddy kit krdshrk?

[kris5597]

would this be a good kit?
http://www.whyindustries.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=23_90_32_38_105&products_id=94

[Krdshrk]

about 7 psi

[Krdshrk]

That's the turbotoyotas kit - good kit. The only problem is that the exhaust manifold comes up too high and there's hood clearance issues.

[kris5597]

so its a def possibility that my hood could melt lol?

[kris5597]

alright i have decided going with the greddy. with e manage ultimate with the 440cc injectors tuned with manual trans and 2.5 inch exhaust piping all the way back with no cats how much whp do u think i could push with this kit at 7 psi? and does the emanage already come preset. so all i would do was install my kit plug in the emanage and my car will be perfectly fine and driveable at 8.5psi preset? or would i have to get it tuned anyway for it to drive and operate right?

[Binder86]

You will need to get it tuned it comes with the software it just needs to learn the program, size of the injectors, amount of fuel needing to get pulled, and boost

[TunerTrifecta]

Eric, you ought to see the size of my dad's turbo lol. It's a GTK850...HOE.LEE.SHIT. I think it's an .82 with a 72mm wheel in it. FAWKIN HUGE. I told him I wanted to put it on my tC to see how long it'd take to spool it at WOT. He said never lol.

[2dot4]

lmfao@brandon. never - hahaha. That's awesome.

as far as the greddy kit, when you add the e-manage option, it comes pretuned for the 440cc injectors at 8.5psi, so yeah - you would just have to install everything...however, if you just want to "plug in" the e-manage, you need the dezod pnp harness, which is $300. If you're familiar with automotive wiring, you can install it in an hour and a half...for free. lol

turbo, with full exhaust...expect to gain 115whp, so you should dyno around 255whp ish with the GReddy kit. Not too shabby.

[Krdshrk]

GReddy kit doesn't run at 8.5 PSI... it runs at about 6-7. 8.5 PSI maybe at the turbo itself but after it runs through the IC it loses a bit of pressure.

But yes, Greddy kit + exhaust should get you to around 250 WHP.

[kris5597]

alright great that is exactly what ima looking for. now i know what to go for. thanks guys going for the greddy. appreciate it. and also here http://www.wesellcarparts.com/store/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=2863 they say it comes with full harness with the e manage unltimate whats the dif between that and the dezod plug and play harness? and which would be better e manage or e manage unltimate?

[2dot4]

the plug and play harness lets you just plug the e-manage into the ecu.

that site says the ultimate comes with the full harness set, which just means it has all the wires to hook up all the features of the e-manage ultimate.

No matter what, if you don't get the dezod plug n play harness, you have to cut and tap each wire by hand. If you get the pnp harness, the whole thing will snap into your ecu wiring in seconds....but it's another $300 on top of what you're already spending for everything else. Depends on how valuable your time is to you.

[kris5597]

ok pnp harness got it gonna go with that. thanks guys

[2dot4]

If you wanna save the money, take a look at the write-up I did. Shows you everything you need to install an e-manage. Just FYI.

http://www.scikotics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18781

[kris5597]

awesome dude. and this is the wire set that comes with the e manage not the pnp harness? and also do u have to have a boost gauge and all the other goody gauges? air/fuel ratio, voltage, oil temp, and all that good stuff? and also what should i get emanage ultimate or emanage?

[2dot4]

That write up is just using the regular emanage harness, not the plug n play.

If you have the option and can afford it, get the ultimate - it wires up the exact same, and offers you a few extra options when tuning.

[kris5597]

o ok. will do if i cant then will the reg emanage be fine for just a turboed daily driver?

[2dot4]

it's what I'm using right now - make sure you buy all the harnesses with it - injector and ignition harness, and the support tool software. If you get all of that stuff with the regular e-manage, the only things you won't be able to do that the ultimate can is trim fuel, and toggle between preset maps...so it's essentially the same thing at that point.

[kris5597]

o ok so ill just go with the reg emanage dont need to worry bout the other stuff. so how much would all of it be with harness and all?

[fightinsk8ers]

it's what I'm using right now - make sure you buy all the harnesses with it - injector and ignition harness, and the support tool software. If you get all of that stuff with the regular e-manage, the only things you won't be able to do that the ultimate can is trim fuel, and toggle between preset maps...so it's essentially the same thing at that point.


you say you can toggle between preset maps with the ultimate so are you saying that if you have a boostcontroller and a laptop in the car you can switch your maps from say 7 psi (for daily driving) to maybe 10psi for a race or at the track?

[kris5597]

if thats the case i will def do that. cause thats what i want.

[2dot4]

yeah, you can set a map for daily driving (like 7psi) and another map for drag racing (10psi)

or you can just have two tunes - one for launching, and one for rolling starts. The Ultimate has a toggle on the box itself - the e-manage blue has the same feature, you just have to use the software.

the software is $117
the injector harness is $35
the ignition harness is $35
Get it all from monkeywrenchracing.com - FASTEST shipping ever, and they're the cheapest for e-manage options. 100% - they are the best online shop I've ever used.

It's up to you. The only thing that ultimate can do that the blue can't ever do is fuel trimming. The Ultimate has an extra harness for injector input and output wires - the blue doesn't, so you're SOL in that aspect, but you still have the option of adjusting airflow to compensate.

[kris5597]

ok so if i got the emanage blue with injector and ignition harnesses and used the pre programmed tune think that will be enough and it will drive right with no problems till i can get it the software to tune it myself?

[kris5597]

and also is 525 shipped for the ultimate a good deal with no harnesses? cause if it is i will just go ahead and get that and order the ignition and injector harnesses from monkeywrenchracing.com and just go with that. and run pre programmed till i can take it and get a tune for dd 1 set at 7 psi and for race 1 set for 10 psi. and its just a toggle? so i flip it and i get 10 psi instead of 7 or is it more complicated than that?

[THansenite]

$525 seems a little high to me. I am sure you can get it cheaper. You just have to look. Spend some time searching on google and you should be able to find a new one around $450ish or so.

[kris5597]

really? for the emanage ultimate? with no harnesses?

[kris5597]

are these good deals. just looking for a good and ideal price i will be spending on e manage and harnesses.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBTOX%3AIT&viewitem=&item=7991566013&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBTOX%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120167618209&_trksid=p3984.cTODAY.m238.lVI

[2dot4]

it's another $70 for the two harness, but the ultimate uses a third harness, which is another $35...so $525 with no harnesses isn't a good deal.

and no, the toggle doesn't up your boost - it lets you toggle between tunes set for certain psi levels...so you would need a boost controller. Set the boost controller to match your pre-set tune, and you're good. The e-manage cannot change your boost settings, just fuel air and ignition timing. It's up to you to change the boost.

Honestly if you want a basic setup - get the e-manage blue ($305), the software ($117), and the two extra harnesses ($70 total), which means you're only spending $492 plus shipping. And the only things you lose are the toggle switch for pre-tunes, and the ability to trim fuel directly. You save $100 to forgo those two options...it's worth it to me.

If you buy the greddy kit the e-manage is pre-tuned. If you buy the e-manage elsewhere, there's no tune on it...so even after installing it, it's the same as not having it...until you get it tuned. Keep that in mind. When you get it tuned, you want to make sure you have all the harnesses you can so they have every option when tuning the car.

[kris5597]

ok well ill just do that. i can get the greddy kit for $2750 shipped so ima go with that. and to include the emanage blue with the injector harness pre programmed and with 4 440cc injectors for $636 without discount. now im not sure where else i can buy the emanage pre programmed with the injectors and the injector harness besides wesellcar parts.com unless u know of a better place. dan offered me the kit for that price and waiting on a price for the emanage blue, injector harness and injectors with the discount. if u know of somewhere else that i can get the kit for cheaper with the emanage pre programmed that would be nice. and if i can get the injectors, harnesses, and emanage blue sep for cheaper then i will just do that. still recommend monkeywrenchracing.com for cheapest prices around. but like u said does it come preprogrammed. and if it only comes preprogrammed with the kit ill just get the kit from dan with the emanage pre tuned with the injectors and injector harness and order the ignition harness with the tuning software from monkeywrenchracing and i should be all set correct?

[2dot4]

ok well ill just do that. i cant get the greddy kit for $2750 shipped so ima go with that. and to include the emanage blue with the injector harness pre programmed and with 4 440cc injectors for $636 without discount. now im not sure where else i can buy the emanage pre programmed with the injectors and the injector harness besides wesellcar parts.com unless u know of a better place. dan offered me the kit for that price and waiting on a price with harnesses as well with the discount. if u know of somewhere else that i can get the kit for cheaper with the emanage pre programmed that would be nice.

the e-manage isn't sold seperately with a tune pre-loaded. You have to buy it with a kit to get it pre-programmed. If you're getting the GReddy kit, add on the e-manage with injectors - that's your best bet and requires the least amount of work. and it's cheaper that way - you get $492 worth of e-manage parts, and a set of injectors (retail is $350 or more)...that totals $850...and you pay $636...sounds like a steal to me.

As far as the price on the GReddy kit - $2700 is as cheap as it comes.

[kris5597]

ok well ill take dans deal. 2750 for the kit. and $636 prob cheaper with the emanage blue pre tuned, injectors, and and injector harness. and order the software and ignition from monkeywrenchracing. kool?

[2dot4]

yeah - sounds good. The ignition harness and software can wait until you're ready to retune it, but It's not a bad idea to buy em if you can afford em.

[kris5597]

ok so i dont need the injector or ignition harness for it to work do I? see still learning. so the emanage just wires in and im good to go? along with the turbo kit installation of course. the harnesses are just for tuning? so when i get my kit put it in wire in my emanage and my car will run fine with the pre programmed 8.5 psi and when i wana tune it ill have the injector and ignition harnesses and the software to fine tune the hell out of it correct? will my car run like shit and have crap gas mileage with the pre tune?

[2dot4]

you need the injector harness

I don't believe you need the ignition harness (I'm not sure what GReddy put in their pre-tune)but you might as well buy it - it's only $35.

but you don't need the software unless you're going to tune it yourself, or if the shop you're taking it to doesn't have it.

You car will run pretty bad without a tune, especially on 8.5psi at WOT. The pre-tune will allow you car to run to factory standards - that's why they offer it.

[kris5597]

ok so expect a shitty running car even with pretune correct. lol ok ill get everything i can including the ignition harness and software as well. if ima do it ima do it right. and prob asking this you will tell me to not touch a button but how hard is it to tune with the software? o and thanks a lot for all of this eric u have been a great help dude.

[2dot4]

You car will run pretty bad without a tune, especially on 8.5psi at WOT. The pre-tune will allow you car to run to factory standards - that's why they offer it.


^^as stated - the car will run like stock (smooth idle, smooth acceleration, just with more power) with a pre-tuned emanage.

if you run without a tune, your car will run shitty.

[kris5597]

awesome well that will do for now. and even with emanage pre tune with turbo and shit with 2.5" exhaust with no cats i should run about 250whp right? so what should i be expecting with tune? and would it hurt to have it running at about 9 psi all the time with a new tune?

[2dot4]

you'll run 250whp with a tune.

the pre-tune is a tune...if you get a pre-tuned emanage, you don't have to tune the car - it's already done for you.

[kris5597]

o ok. sorry for all this noob shit lol. like i said just learning. ok ill just keep that then. so 250whp is plenty thanks dude. like i asked before how hard is it to tune with the software?

[kris5597]

anyway dude thanks for all your help and advice. back to turbo talk. whats your car running eric? psi? whp? and have u been tuned yet?

[2dot4]

I wouldn't do it yourself. I know what I'm doing and I won't try it myself. Take it somewhere to get it tuned - it's more reliable and you have someone to blame if something goes wrong lol.

As far as monitoring your engine, it's super easy to use - you can watch rpms, airflow volume, injector duration, duty cycle, and ignition timing...it's pretty damn interesting if you ask me. I like the software. You just need a laptop to use it.

[kris5597]

bad ass dude. o yea one more thing i forgot do i need a boost gauge and air/fuel ratio gauges and all that other fun stuff? or is that for race purposes and shit? gonna get a boost meter but do i need anything else?

[kris5597]

is there a possibility that a turbo could fuck my car up? like would i expect for anything to go wrong or at least be prepared or something? and would maintenance change with it turboed? would i need to change my oil more often or run higher octane fuel?

[Jackkass]

With any turbo its almost a rule of thumb to use the highest octane gas available to prevent detonation, and about the oil, its usually a good idea to run full synthetic or at least get a turbo timer to prevent coking of oil in the turbo. I as long as your not beating on the engine a lot the oil should still last just as long. And I have a question of my own, will the e manage blue still let you adjust the speed limiter and rev limiter or is that feature only available in the ultimate?

TYLER

[TunerTrifecta]

I would definitely recommend using premium fuel myself. Also, I would switch over to a full synthetic oil if you don't already use it. Be forewarned though, once you go synthetic, you CANNOT go back to dino oil.

I would definitely be prepared in the case that something DOES happen. It most likely won't as long as you aren't 100% abusing the car, and you're running a safe tune (such as the pre-tuned version), but I would keep a stash of money ready in case something does break. Better safe than sorry ya know?

[kris5597]

yea i run full synthetic do and always will. and ok all i wanted to know. and when i turbo will run high octane for safety lol. thanks. and about the question u asked. wrong guy here.

[TunerTrifecta]

lol w00t for almost identical posts back to back!

[kris5597]

lol. but yea whats the worst that could happen with turbo?

[TunerTrifecta]

worst that could happen? Detonation. Put a rod through the side of the block. yeah that's probably definitely the worst lol. Best case scenario...well best case nothing breaks haha

[2dot4]

if you get the greddy kit and get the pre-tuned emanage WITH the kit from GReddy, you're fine. It won't fuck up anything. As far as installation - if you don't know how, take it somewhere and pay. I don't know your abilities, but if you're not confident enough to start the task, then don't.

[kris5597]

ok cool dude thanks just wana know my reliability with turbo. and me and my friend are gonna do it and i feel confident in doing it.

[TunerTrifecta]

Honestly dude, I'm not trying to be a jackass, but you seem very new to turbos, and cars in general--I wouldn't put the task of re-tuning it up to yourself. You may just end up with that rod through the block. Leave the pre-tune on it until you can afford to have a professionally trained individual tune it.

[kris5597]

turbos yes cars no u are right about that. and def pre tune will def stay where its at was just interested to see how the software works. im not that stupid to change it but to tune it yes lol and your right would be trying to figure out how to get the rod out of my hood lol.

[2dot4]

if your rod shot out upward, I don't think you'd have to worry about the hood stopping it...your head and valvetrain and valve cover would probably catch it. lol

[TunerTrifecta]

well tuning it would be changing it. I'm not following. Sorry if you took what I said before wrong, I just don't want to see you making a thread "L@@K! New hood ornament!!" with a chunk of you head sticking out of it...

[TunerTrifecta]

I dunno, Eric, my buddy Kevin with the Procharged SVT Focus put a piston ALMOST all the way through his head. DESTROYED 5 valves. 4 over the piston that grenaded and 1 in the cylinder next door.

[kris5597]

LMFAO nice tunertrifecta that was funny. NEW HOOD ORNAMENT! yea just saying im not changing a thing that comes with the pre tune or anything of that sort lol. just saying if i wanted to re tune it for say if i got a bigger turbo or whatever would it be as easy as moving a bar from turbo size to the next for tuning you know lol. thats all.

[2dot4]

no it's not that easy

to tune, you need to know how much fuel needs to be injected when, and you need to know how to adjust timing to prevent detonation while maximizing compression for peak power. It's complicated and should be left to the pros.

I'm hoping to learn a thing or two when I get mine tuned, because I hate not knowing how to do certain things...it bugs me.

[kris5597]

shit dude im right there with ya. all this shit is so got damn interesting and it bugs the hell out of me cause i dont know much about it and wana learn so bad. turbo, tuning, and all.

[TunerTrifecta]

Amen to that, Eric. My interior was the first time I've ever attempted something like that, and after hearing what shops charge to do it, I'm glad I learned myself how to! lol.

Anywho *ahem*threadjack*ahem* Eric, go read the vinyl thread in our chapter, I posted pics for you!!! *ahem*/threadjack*ahem*

[kris5597]

whats with the thread jack?

[2dot4]

sorry - brandon forgot to close his tags..

[/threadjack]

thereyago.

[kris5597]

i still dont get it. and why the fuck does my thing say thread jacker i didnt put that <<<<<<<<? wtf?

[2dot4]

hahaha - dude go to bed...that has been there since the middle of January lol!

you crack me up.

[TunerTrifecta]

ROFL!!!!!!!!

When I said threadjack, I meant I was stealing the topic for a sec. And I DID close my tag...go look again you whore. Don't make me sick Kristin on you lmao.

Kris--that's just your user title, for some reason we can't change them anymore. You def need some sleep haha.

[kris5597]

lol and didnt even get any last night. fucking didnt go to bed till like 3 and had to wake up for 6 dont feel good at all. but whatever anyways. im ready to get my turbo now. i wana have fun with that shit man.

[Krdshrk]

Jeez. 2 pages i had to read through.

Yes - you need a Boost gauge definitely. I would also get a Wideband O2 and an Oil Pressure gauge. EGT is a "maybe" gauge.

With the GReddy kit - please be aware that it does NOT come with a BOV & flange. You will need to purchase them. Plus - it's aluminum piping so you will need a TIG welder to weld on the flange for the BOV.

Also - the emanage blue is decent for daily driving... But I prefer the emanage ultimate. You can do a lot more tuning with it... it works a little better with partial throttle, and if you get the MAP sensor (Mass Air Pressure sensor) you can get a better tune with it - tune under boost.

Still - all of that adds up. You may be better off going with the AEM F/IC.

[kris5597]

o didnt know that about the BOV. F*CK!!! guess i will look into that as well. and whats the flange? where the BOV connects to the piping?

[kris5597]

if i need a BOV then why did greddy build a kit without one?

even this tc doesnt have a BOV or at least i dont see it.
http://www.importtuner.com/reviews/parts/0702_impp_greddy_scion_tc_turbo_kit/photo_07.html

[Krdshrk]

BOV is not necessary but it's a highly recommended thing to have. Without a way to release the boost pressure when you let off the gas, the pressurized air can go BACK into the turbo, causing the turbo to stop spinning or spin backwards. That severely wears down the turbo and it will go bad fast.

And yes, the flange is what connects the BOV to the piping.

[kris5597]

damn. why wasnt the greddy kit built with one?